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Thread: To strop or not to strop....

  1. #61
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    Raggenbas video
    Sorry, Queenmasteroftheuniverseandbabybunnytrainer needed me and I didn’t get chance to watch the Video until now.

    Fiat
    My industrial engineer mentor that I worked along side for fifteen years, John, he had one and said it was always fun driving his here in Colorado because invariably a big O’ American V8 some such would blow by him on the straights at low elevation as if he were the non-patriotic scum of the earth . . .
    later on as the big belcher was gasping for air and petering out up near the top of the pass he would blow by them through the hair pins as if to say “Sorry, I didn’t hear what you said way back there . . . come agin ?”.


    Fairly typically Italian
    An acquaintance I talk to regularly here works on Ferraris a lot. Yah it is hard to feel sorry for him but I try. I stop in and he walks around from a Dino or Testarossa and I say “ How’s it going; are you hanging in there “? He knows I am being sarcastic and mean the red thing on the lift next to him. In his typical unhurried way of talking he looks beleaguered and hang dog and says “Well if I were going to be stranded on a desert island I would take one of these with me . . . I would at least always have something to do”.
    Last edited by Winton Applegate; 09-07-2014 at 7:12 PM.
    Sharpening is Facetating.
    Good enough is good enough
    But
    Better is Better.

  2. #62
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    Kees,

    Raggenbas video
    Hey thanks for putting that up !
    I am enjoying it. The heavy more durable bottom, lighter and cheeper top is a good solution all around.
    Makes me want to learn French again.

    Sorry, Queenmasteroftheuniverseandbabybunnytrainer needed me and I didn’t get a chance to watch the whole Video yet.
    Sharpening and no strop
    Yah he just holds the blade way back (so he doesn’t burn his fingers) and grinds the heck out of it then slaps her on that swoopy aced stone to throw off the newbies who are watching. When the camera isn’t rolling he gets his brother to sharpen for him on the flat water stones hidden in the back. Secrets of the trade and all that.

    LN must have had him preparing their blade backs back in the day. That explains a lot.

    Interesting how the sway backed stone has kind of a ruler trick thing going as far as supporting the blade back a couple inches from the edge, abrading just the edge without hitting the metal in between. That could actually work. Still kind of roundy making though

    As far as effortless free handing, and at light speed by the way be sure to watch Frank Klausz sharpen a plane blade (or was it a wide chisel) on his Hand Tools video. I don’t own it but borrowed it from my local WoodCraft that rents videos. Franks stone looks flat though so there must be more than one way to sharpen.
    Sharpening is Facetating.
    Good enough is good enough
    But
    Better is Better.

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by Winton Applegate View Post
    David,


    even though, apparently you had a typing fart there, I think I get what you meant to type.
    Yeah, cursed responsibility that comes along with typing on a phone. I meant to say that I can imagine why larry wouldn't like to make bubinga planes out of it. Floats don't really work well in the long term on that kind of stuff. A blunt edged chisel works better, but you don't always have the option to work it at a good angle on anything other than a bed.

    I don't know larry that well, as far as shooting a few barbs and telling you to use a real plane and not use the exotics...

    ... I'll put my money on george and warren if there is any disagreement, so if you like those bevel up planes, and you like bubinga, keep using them.

    I recall once larry mentioned toxic grinding of exotic alloy steels (when bill tindall and I - not in coordination with each other - were on a bender with different exotic alloys - yeah, I used to be into that), and I've never seen anything about it anywhere else, either (because the alloys are stable and chromium doesn't just free itself and turn into cancer balls in the lungs). I still grind those "toxic" steels sometimes. As I sit here, I read an MSDS for HSS that states clearly that the risk of grinding HSS and huffing the dust is pneumoconiosis (if you can imagine actually breathing that much dust - that's the coal miner's disease of black lung for the uninitiated), and this is for an alloy that has everything except the kitchen sink.

    We all like to be right, I guess.

  4. #64
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    I have breathed too much of everything over the years. Which is why I have COPD pretty bad these days. I now can afford vacuum systems separately for metal and wood dust.

    Cobalt bearing HSS is not good to breathe. Most HSS does not contain cobalt due to its expense these days.When I was a kid,I noticed it commonly on drill bits. Not now,unless you pay a LOT more.

  5. #65
    I'd imagine the biggest danger from steel dust over the long term will be oxidizing dust, or the quantity of the dust in general.

    As a hobbyist, I feel pretty safe grinding just about everything except silica based stones and some of the toxic bronzes (isn't there a beryllium or bromate bronze or something that's carcinogenic?)

  6. #66
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    It just happened to me. There was nothing I could have done. Life sucks.

    toxic grinding of exotic alloy steels

    Uuuuuuaaaahhhh . . . where do I start ?

    To the newbies reading this:

    • You don’t have to breath metal hardly at all; dust or vaporized.
    • You don’t have to get things in your eyes all the time or get hit in the face by flying chunks coming off your power tools.
    • You don’t have to have your eyes burning all week from arc welding rays .

    and get this . . .

    • You don’t have to breath spray painting fumes that are so toxic they not only make you throw up violently after you paint your car but shorten you life span. = two part epoxy paint.


    Tada (see photos).

    We just use “Magic”. To get the magic I go into the “Tool Crib” (laundry room) and open up the metal cabinet or rummage around in one of the plastic tubs.

    To get your own magic you can find it at the local magic shop cleverly disguised as “A Safety Equipment Supply Store” what ever that means.

    Sorry . . . it drives me right up the wall when people electric arc weld with sunglasses and then spend my lunch hour telling me how much their eyes hurt and what the doctor said and how he doesn’t know “nuuuuthin’”.

    and they call me "crazy".

    Or their friends brag about how he sprays a car and doesn’t use no stupid mask he just goes out back and throws up and that’s all good then.

    What ? Why ?

    By the way the thin pancake filters go on the double filter mask and they are designed to fit under the welding helmet.

    PS: the lens in the welding helmet is pretty cool. It is gold plated and that allows the welder to be able to see true colors so they can
    judge when the tungsten electrode gets contaminated (there is a green halo that comes off it) normal welding lenses are already green so one can't see true colors through them. Only a couple of bucks more for gold plated.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by Winton Applegate; 09-08-2014 at 3:14 AM.
    Sharpening is Facetating.
    Good enough is good enough
    But
    Better is Better.

  7. #67
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    silica
    At the fine art bronze foundry I worked at, as I mentioned in other threads, I spent all day nearly every day forming ceramic shell castings to pour molten bronze into to make parts of the sculpture (then those parts were TIG welded together to form huge sculptures).

    The ceramic shells were made from silica. I started with dust so fine it could easily reproduce finger prints from the workers left on the wax castings used to build the shells around. (Lost wax process) The silica was adhered to the wax using a milk like slurry then the silica was dusted on to the wet surface. Layer after layer after layer progressively coarser every day until I was dumping rocks over the shells to add strength. Bronze is heavy and really hits those castings.

    Yah so I know what it is like to wear this equipment all day long. Dusty dambed life shortening job let me tell you. I was fortunate when I lost my job there. I might live longer because of loosing it.
    Sharpening is Facetating.
    Good enough is good enough
    But
    Better is Better.

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Winton Applegate View Post
    Kees,



    Hey thanks for putting that up !
    I am enjoying it. The heavy more durable bottom, lighter and cheeper top is a good solution all around.
    Makes me want to learn French again.

    Sorry, Queenmasteroftheuniverseandbabybunnytrainer needed me and I didn’t get a chance to watch the whole Video yet.

    Yah he just holds the blade way back (so he doesn’t burn his fingers) and grinds the heck out of it then slaps her on that swoopy aced stone to throw off the newbies who are watching. When the camera isn’t rolling he gets his brother to sharpen for him on the flat water stones hidden in the back. Secrets of the trade and all that.

    LN must have had him preparing their blade backs back in the day. That explains a lot.

    Interesting how the sway backed stone has kind of a ruler trick thing going as far as supporting the blade back a couple inches from the edge, abrading just the edge without hitting the metal in between. That could actually work. Still kind of roundy making though

    As far as effortless free handing, and at light speed by the way be sure to watch Frank Klausz sharpen a plane blade (or was it a wide chisel) on his Hand Tools video. I don’t own it but borrowed it from my local WoodCraft that rents videos. Franks stone looks flat though so there must be more than one way to sharpen.
    Well, of course the video wasn't made to settle our sharpening discussions once and for all. It's just an impression of the good old days. Still, that's the kind of oilstone they used back then complete with dish and all that. And they didn't seem to be into fine polishing, or flat backs, or doing a whole bunch of back flattening. Somehow they got along and I often wonder: How?

    I'm sure his father (not his brother!) had teached him all there was to know about sharpening a long time ago.

  9. #69
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    Stay entirely away from beryllium!!!!!! I have a beryllium wrecking bar (1/2 of one) that was used in a non sparking application somewhere. Someone sawed it in half. I got it when I was young and more ignorant. I always meant to make something out of it,but fortunately never did!! And,now I know better. That stuff will kill you. But,there are alloys that are o.k.(copper beryllium)(said that in reverse). I don't know a lot about them anyway,and just avoid the whole lot.

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by george wilson View Post
    Stay entirely away from beryllium!!!!!! I have a beryllium wrecking bar (1/2 of one) that was used in a non sparking application somewhere. Someone sawed it in half. I got it when I was young and more ignorant. I always meant to make something out of it,but fortunately never did!! And,now I know better. That stuff will kill you. But,there are alloys that are o.k.(copper beryllium)(said that in reverse). I don't know a lot about them anyway,and just avoid the whole lot.
    Yeah, in the machine shop we were required to wear a respirator and cover all exposed skin when machining beryllium copper. That and Kevlar make a yummy cancer cocktail.

    Grinding is no joke. In the old days, the guys who earned a living grinding tools were dead by their 30s or 40s. The stuff that comes off a dry grinder is orders of magnitude worse than a table saw, planer, etc. Some kind of dust collection or a dust mask is always a good idea.

  11. #71
    Ian, you should empty your message box! PM's don't come through anymore.

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by David Weaver View Post
    On a properly honed edge, stropping removes the wire edge (which can sometimes be a set of several long pieces, and other times just a bunch of ragged bits - meaning it can sometimes show up visibly, but if you're not looking for it it often doesn't, and sometimes you might just think it's a contaminant on your strop if it comes off and is sitting on it. It can look like a very thin hairlike piece).

    Stropping on a tool and razor is a bit different for two reasons, first you are expecting perfection out of a razor edge (or as close as can be achieved), and second, the final bevel on a razor edge is about 17 or 18 degrees, and you really don't want it to be steeper or thicker than it has to be. 17 or 18 degrees is fragile, and if a razor isn't up to par quality-wise, sometimes stropping will damage the edge a little bit and you just never quite get the edge you want out of it. On a razor like that, the new trick (old trick?) on razor forums is to put electrical tape on the spine or a razor for finish honing because it makes the edge a bit steeper. I have seen people say "this edge wouldn't settle down until i used four pieces of electrical tape", meaning four layers thick.

    On a tool, your final bevel is somewhere between 25 and 35 degrees most of the time, and the fragility of the edge doesn't exist. You're stropping briskly or otherwise to remove any trash that's left on the edge after honing to try to reveal the thinnest part of the edge. It is still important that an unloaded strop of this type is clean, as little bits of metal or grit can nick the edges. It's not hard to keep a strop clean if you pay attention to what you're doing, but it's hard to keep it clean if you just keep it laying face up out in the open all the time.

    It's not critical that you keep a tool edge at a specific angle on the strop, I personally like to keep an edge somewhere close to the bevel and strop back and front. I think that gives the most step-up in sharpness from whatever you've gone to and from. The thicker the wire edge, the more pressure you need (if you do some harsh brisk stropping off of a soft arkansas, you can get an edge that's stepped up well and will shave hair despite a coarse stone, but if you do the same thing coming off of a finely settled translucent arkansas, you may not be very happy with the results). Anyway, that translates to stropping off of a coarser stone should be a little more brisk, but the briskness doesn't do anything to help off of a finer stone and a little bit more touch is helpful.

    I like a bare leather strop smooth side out and with a little bit of oil on it so that I can see whether there are lines on the strop - if there are and they disappear, I know I've refined the edge and all I have to do is shave hair on my arm to test it and it's easily proved. If the lines don't want to come out and there are a lot of them, I probably have a very coarse wire edge and didn't finsh as well as I thought (this is only the kind of thing that happens when you prepare a new iron and you didn't get it as flat as you think - and it is specifically why you want to have a flat iron back for the last fraction of the edge - so that you can work the wire edge thinner before stropping.

    Razor stropping is done on a hanging strop because the pressure on the edge should be somewhat minimal, but you still need the whole edge to be contacted by the strop. A settled in razor strop will reflect an image, it is miles more carefully prepared than a tooling strop. Most new strops are not well conditioned, and will be improved with a couple of thousand razor strokes on them. I'd imagine the old ones were probably like that, though, too. Use makes them better, and much care to leave them hanging in an area where they won't get dirty. The razor is carefully stropped with the spine on the strop *never* leaving the strop when the razor is moving. the razor is flipped back and forth with the spine staying on the strop. Lifting the back can ruin the edge, and the term for it is "rolling the edge", at least that's how I've seen it. Stropping without lifting the spine of a razor is a basic skill needed to shave with a straight razor, and beginners are sometimes rough on razors and strops.

    there is no substitute for a razor strop, an edge is never finished as well as it is with good horse leather on anything else, and another nice skill to have with razors is to always work with a stropped edge and hone only to thin the thickness of the edge, never working all of the way to it. Over time a very strong, polished and very keen but smooth edge develops.

    I'm not referencing any compounds in the above, because they are more honing than stropping.

    As far as the leather goes, for anyone looking to strop a lot of things (it's really a nice skill to have, to be able to use bare leather with good effect), vegetable tanned cowhide can be had all over the place cheaply, and horse butt strips and other scraps of it can also be had a lot more cheaply than they can be had from woodworking or razor retailers. Just search them on ebay and look for a piece that looks relatively clear. If your shop strop gets dirty, which it inevitably will even just with metal swarf that it cleans off of an edge, you can scrape it with a card scraper and re-oil it. You can also sand a strop, but risk sandpaper contamination (though that should be something you could brush out). I use cow leather in the shop most of the time and horse leather exclusively for razors. Nothing else is as good as horse leather (either cordovan or broken in horse butt) for razors. 8/9 ounce veg leather is what I like in the shop, and if I can get horse butt in that weight, I like it, but sometimes it's not available in anything other than lighter weights. It has a woody feel when it's glued to wood.

    Shaving strops for me are hanging (can get good edge contact without much pressure), 100% and all of my tooling strops are glued to scrap wood (just use hide glue or whatever and clamp the strop to another piece of wood to get it nicely adhered) because stropping is a firmer thing in the shop and a firmer substrate is nice.

    One has to ask what's so great about stropping in the shop if you can just get an ultrafine stone and avoid it, and I'd say the ease of using a single stone or two stones where the geometry of the edge is protected more than it would be if you used a whole bunch of stones. You can use an ultrafine stone in place of a strop, though, and just use it sparingly so that it's just polishing the edge (and not worrying about mirror polishing a whole lot of metal). I just like the leather better.
    wow. this is great. i need to learn how to convert things to a pdf.

    I am looking for a vegan strop. Sounds like i might get away with it for tools but not shaving? Do you have any recommendations? Denim, canvas? Glued to a board like the leather? There is a guy Murray Carter who puts a single piece of newspaper on a damp stone.

    I have not shaved in 10 years because of the irritation with safety razors. Always wanted to try a straight. I got one off ebay and really could only shave my cheeks and neck after the Shapton 15K, no strop. The goatee area is very uncomfortable. I was sharpening the same as tools though except that i tried the stone dry. It never real gets like a true mirror. The reflection is super clear but there are easily visible scratches that i am pretty sure are not from a coarser, earlier used stone. Is there a vegan alternative to horse hide?

  13. #73
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    Is there a vegan alternative to horse hide?
    Are those little Nogas vegan? Not sure if their hides will stand up to stropping.

    jtk
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
    - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

  14. #74
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    I must be slow.... I had to read that a few times to understand what you were asking. My first thought was that you wanted leather from a "vegan animal" but that made no sense to me. I assume that taking your strop from a meat eating animal does not count (even if you do then reduce the meat consumed)

    I think that you can "strop" on almost anything.... Not sure you can call it stropping, however.

    Two things come to mind.... MDF or a flattened piece of wood such as Maple.

    I have seen newspaper specifically listed as a something to use as a strop. I have not tried this, but, I have been told (I do not claim it is true) that newspaper's ink acts as an abrasive to give a final finish. I have also heard of cardboard being used. You might even be able to simply use another piece of steel the way you would "steel" a knife. If you already have everything the way you want and only need a hone, then just go ahead and use newspaper to remove the bur.

  15. #75
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    "Vegan stropping."

    Hmmm...

    I wonder if a kiwi would work?
    I am never wrong.

    Well...I thought I was wrong once...but I was mistaken.

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