Rabbit Rl-40-640 vs.FSL Gen 5?

[Dan Bihary]

OK, I'm looking at around a $2,000 difference. Rabbit is 6k, fls is $4k.

I live in Ohio, and like the idea of local support from Rabbit, but 2K is a big difference.

I am a hobby user, that will also be using the laser for occasional educational purposes. I'd love to also use it eventually for some small production.

Future 60w upgrade would also be nice.

Thoughts?

[David Somers]

Dan,

Have you done a search in the forum on FSL? Might answer some of your questions. Suggest doing the search from the magnifying glass at the top right of the forum listing. That will open a google search preloaded for Sawmill. Follow what it puts in the search bar with space and then "Full Spectrum Laser". You do want the quotes in this case.

That should give you more than enough references to help you decide.

Be sure to do the same thing with "Rabbit Laser" BTW.

Incidentally, I am not trying to be obtuse with you. I have no direct experience with FSL so I figure it is better for you to look at people's experiences than hear things third hand.

Dave

[Dan Hintz]

If the choice is between brand 'X' and FSL, choose brand 'X' (for all values of 'X').

[Dan Bihary]

Thanks for the replies.

I'm very familiar with the downside of FSL. I also know that sometimes the good is overshadowed by the bad reputation.

At what point is the risk of FSL worth it? If the FSL was $800, would you buy it? How about $1,900?

I'm definitely not sticking up for FSL but if they are really the Yugo of lasers, they wouldn't still be in business would they?

So whats the alternative? Direct order from China?

[Mike Null]

If I lived that close to Rabbit there would be no doubt in my mind. (even if I didn't)

There must be a reason FSL has to sell their product so much cheaper.

I believe in giving chances to people who have earned them.

[Dennis Watson]

Lives that close to Ray and thinking FSL? No way. There are people coming in here for help because the machine they bought dont have support, and Ray helps them anyway.

[David Somers]

Hey Dan!

That was why I just suggested you search on them and see what is there so you could make up your mind. I tried not to be negative about them.

Another alternative I had looked into is Bell Lasers.
There were a few things about them that made me nervous enough not to go near them. But at the same time, I have seen little from recent times that was negative so they may also have cleared things up and be doing fine. One of the owners participates in the forum and they seem to do well by folks on the tube recharge side of their business.

Ordering from China is certainly an option, if you go into it open eyed. The thread on Chinese lasers at the top of the forum might give you some insight. I am in the process of working with them right now and am happy to PM with you about it if you want.

Lots of options out there. You just need to weigh the benefits and the risks and what you are willing to spend. Like any purchase of course. Just perhaps a bit more confusing when you get into lasers.

On Rabbit. One benefit of them is that they will come out to your place and work with you to set it up and align it and spend about 9 hours with you training you on it. That is quite valuable if you are not currently a laser owner. Or you can arrange to go down there since you are close enough. Not sure what that would save you in $$. Might be worth asking since you are so close.

Dave

[Jerome Stanek]

Have you talked with Ray or Carole they do sometimes have specials that are not on their page. Also you are comparing 2 different size machines and the Rabbit comes with a chiller and support that you have to pay for with the FSL.

[Dan Hintz]

I'm definitely not sticking up for FSL but if they are really the Yugo of lasers, they wouldn't still be in business would they?

There are plenty of businesses still pulling in new customers while at the same time ticking old customers off. Ordering from FSL is like ordering a Chinese laser directly form China... sometimes you get a peach, sometimes you get a lemon. It's what happens when you get a lemon that counts. FSL has shown time and again to be very moody, and once they get annoyed with a customer, say goodbye to tech support, warranty support, etc. Numerous people have posted here about warranties (and emails and phone calls) being completely ignored once FSL realizes it will cost them too much to fix the problem (I'll let some of the old threads speak for themselves).

Rabbit not only takes care of everything with your order, they also take care of problems with OTHER company's orders. That says something about the owner... AND the business.

Your gamble... er, choice.

[Bert Kemp]

MY FSL LASER sits in a corner broken for the 5th or 6th time collecting dust and FSL has disowned me, they won't help at all. I'm picking up my Rabbit in person from Ray on Oct 1st and I live in AZ, I'm 5 hours from FSL and two days from Rabbit but thats were I'm going.Oh and the Rabbit yes it a little more money but it has a 60 watt tube 24x16 engraving area, stand on casters, pass thru doors.. if you search fsl forums and find one thats not directly FSL you'll see all the problems those guys are having with the gen 5. I think their beta testers for FSL LOL

[Dennis Rech]

OK, I'm looking at around a $2,000 difference. Rabbit is 6k, fls is $4k.

I live in Ohio, and like the idea of local support from Rabbit, but 2K is a big difference.

I am a hobby user, that will also be using the laser for occasional educational purposes. I'd love to also use it eventually for some small production.

Thoughts?

I have had a FLS Hobby Laser for almost 4 years. It has worked just fine with no real problems at all.
The machine now has close to 400 hours on it and it may be down on power about 10% from new.
Other than that, it performs just like new.
Here is 2 pennies worth of opinion from someone who has actually seen and used and bought a FSL.

The Rabbit is a physically much bigger machine. It is free standing and weights hundreds of pounds more than the FSL.
You can pick up a Hobby machine by yourself and carry it in a small SUV easily. The Rabbit needs a forklift and should be considered a permanent fixture.
After moving the FSL, it will assuredly need a 15 minute realignment.
It is a lightweight, table top machine.

A 40 watt machine doesn't need a chiller. A 5 gallon bucket of water will do.
The FSL exhaust fan leaves lots to be desired. Buy a bigger one.

Both machines are Chinese and it is doubtful that one is really more reliable than the other.
Either way, aftermarket parts are cheap and for the $2000 difference, you can buy a LOT of parts.

The FSL has a removable bottom. You can set it on the kitchen table and engrave a picture of your girlfriend onto it.
It engraves and cuts perfectly fine for hobby use and about a well as any other glass tube Chinese machine.

The Rabbit has a bigger cutting area. Four extra inches in each direction are really nice.
You really should be comparing the Rabbit with FSL Professional series of about the same size and cost.

The standard 40 watt tube of the FSL is overrated by 25%.
The Rabbit may be also, I do not know.
It takes 7 seconds per inch to cut 1/4 inch clear acrylic on the FSL if you can find a Rabbit to compare.

The most important difference, and the one that no one on this group discusses because none of them have used a FSL is the software.
Unless the Chinese software has greatly improved in the last few years since I have last used it, FSL software is easily worth a thousand dollars more than anything that I have seen from China.
The FSL has a real print driver that seems to work with every program that can print.
If you can print with your Epson or Canon printer, you can cut or engrave it with the FSL.
It shows the image on screen and it can be rotated and scaled on the screen.
A red dot on the screen follows the action.
It can be paused and restarted.
Any vector can be selected and re-cut.
You don't have to buy the correct version of Corel or AutoCad.
It just works with everything, every time, flawlessly and intuitively.
And all the words are in English. Good old American English.

You may want to visit the Rabbit dealership and have a look at the software.
Then see if you can find someone with a FSL close by and look at the FSL print driver.

Ray Scott's organization comes with a lot of praise for service, training and support.
I don't know how much service, training and support a Rabbit Laser needs.
From what I read here, a FSL comes with indifferent support at best.
I don't know, I have never needed it.
I unboxed the machine, stuck 2 hoses into a bucket of water and pushed an exhaust hose through the hole that I had cut into my shop wall the day before.
Installed the software driver and turned the machine on.
I followed the instructions and took 20 minutes to align it, pushed print and had an engraving within an hour of receiving the crate.

I notice that several of the people that were blowing and carping the loudest about their FSL machines are now over at other forums and are using their machines without problems.
It would be nice for them to return here and let us know how they resolved the problems that they were having. I suspect that they eventually read all of the instructions.

I paid $2300 for mine on sale and with a cutting speed of 8 inches per minute for 400 hours, it works out to cutting 1/4 inch acrylic for a bit over a penny an inch.
It has been a great deal.

Dennis

[Mike Troncalli]

Dan, Sent you a PM for about a FSL forum that might help you with some of your questions.

Mike

[Ernie Balch]

I have a 3 year old Rabbit that came with everything. exhaust, chiller, computer, compressor and ducting. It has worked without problems the entire time. Ray came out and set up the machine and spent the day training us on every substrate we could dig up. I can't comment on service until something goes wrong. Since they stock spare parts I don't expect any problems in that regard. ernie

[Bert Kemp]

I have had a FLS Hobby Laser for almost 4 years. It has worked just fine with no real problems at all.
The machine now has close to 400 hours on it and it may be down on power about 10% from new.
Other than that, it performs just like new.
Here is 2 pennies worth of opinion from someone who has actually seen and used and bought a FSL.

The Rabbit is a physically much bigger machine. It is free standing and weights hundreds of pounds more than the FSL.
You can pick up a Hobby machine by yourself and carry it in a small SUV easily. The Rabbit needs a forklift and should be considered a permanent fixture.
After moving the FSL, it will assuredly need a 15 minute realignment.
It is a lightweight, table top machine.

A 40 watt machine doesn't need a chiller. A 5 gallon bucket of water will do.
The FSL exhaust fan leaves lots to be desired. Buy a bigger one.

Both machines are Chinese and it is doubtful that one is really more reliable than the other.
Either way, aftermarket parts are cheap and for the $2000 difference, you can buy a LOT of parts.

The FSL has a removable bottom. You can set it on the kitchen table and engrave a picture of your girlfriend onto it.
It engraves and cuts perfectly fine for hobby use and about a well as any other glass tube Chinese machine.

The Rabbit has a bigger cutting area. Four extra inches in each direction are really nice.
You really should be comparing the Rabbit with FSL Professional series of about the same size and cost.

The standard 40 watt tube of the FSL is overrated by 25%.
The Rabbit may be also, I do not know.
It takes 7 seconds per inch to cut 1/4 inch clear acrylic on the FSL if you can find a Rabbit to compare.

The most important difference, and the one that no one on this group discusses because none of them have used a FSL is the software.
Unless the Chinese software has greatly improved in the last few years since I have last used it, FSL software is easily worth a thousand dollars more than anything that I have seen from China.
The FSL has a real print driver that seems to work with every program that can print.
If you can print with your Epson or Canon printer, you can cut or engrave it with the FSL.
It shows the image on screen and it can be rotated and scaled on the screen.
A red dot on the screen follows the action.
It can be paused and restarted.
Any vector can be selected and re-cut.
You don't have to buy the correct version of Corel or AutoCad.
It just works with everything, every time, flawlessly and intuitively.
And all the words are in English. Good old American English.

You may want to visit the Rabbit dealership and have a look at the software.
Then see if you can find someone with a FSL close by and look at the FSL print driver.

Ray Scott's organization comes with a lot of praise for service, training and support.
I don't know how much service, training and support a Rabbit Laser needs.
From what I read here, a FSL comes with indifferent support at best.
I don't know, I have never needed it.
I unboxed the machine, stuck 2 hoses into a bucket of water and pushed an exhaust hose through the hole that I had cut into my shop wall the day before.
Installed the software driver and turned the machine on.
I followed the instructions and took 20 minutes to align it, pushed print and had an engraving within an hour of receiving the crate.

I notice that several of the people that were blowing and carping the loudest about their FSL machines are now over at other forums and are using their machines without problems.
It would be nice for them to return here and let us know how they resolved the problems that they were having. I suspect that they eventually read all of the instructions.

I paid $2300 for mine on sale and with a cutting speed of 8 inches per minute for 400 hours, it works out to cutting 1/4 inch acrylic for a bit over a penny an inch.
It has been a great deal.

Dennis

Dennis said"The Rabbit is a physically much bigger machine. It is free standing and weights hundreds of pounds more than the FSL.
You can pick up a Hobby machine by yourself and carry it in a small SUV easily. The Rabbit needs a forklift and should be considered a permanent fixture.
Rabbits are on casters and can be moved around very easily, were as you have to pick up a bulky fsl to move it, the realign it.

[Dennis Rech]

Dennis said"The Rabbit is a physically much bigger machine. It is free standing and weights hundreds of pounds more than the FSL.
You can pick up a Hobby machine by yourself and carry it in a small SUV easily. The Rabbit needs a forklift and should be considered a permanent fixture.
Rabbits are on casters and can be moved around very easily, were as you have to pick up a bulky fsl to move it, the realign it.

Hello Bert,
Please don't take my comment about the extra weight and bulk as a criticism of the Rabbit, just an observation that the two machines should not be compared as apples to apples and that there is a lot more to consider than $2000.
Remember, the inquiry started with someone asking about HOBBY machines that may be used for educational purposes.
The FSL is 70 pounds. FedEx drops it off at the door and the wife can drag it into the living room.
You can set it on a roll around printer stand if you wish.
The Rabbit is delivered by a trucking company, hopefully with a lift gate truck. The specs say the shipping weight is 750 pounds.
Once it is dropped off in the driveway, one better have a forklift or several big friends with hand trucks.
And it better not be on a sloped driveway.
Once it is picked up and set on perhaps a piano dolly or two, it can be rolled up to the house or maybe into the garage.
This is going to be a major task if stairs are involved. It can be quite dangerous.
The Rabbit is more than 30 inches wide and that means that it is not going through a standard interior door without dis-assembly.
The Rabbit site has instructions about this.
Even though the Rabbit comes on castors, it will be a major job to move it somewhere else outside the space that it is in.
You sure ain't going to just take it to school to show the kids.
Seven hundred pounds going up and down stairs can be a major task, especially if it is on wheels.
It could even be fatal.
Moving it may be a job for professional riggers.

To paraphrase the responses to the original question concerning a HOBBY machine, most were of the,
"Buy the Rabbit because Ray Scott is a great guy and FSL is a bunch of ," (Likely truer than false?) and ignoring the physical aspects of the actual machines.

There are many other 40 watt Chinese machines that should be considered. For a home-hobbyist, I would recommend a table top machine on a stand that can be moved.

A big question that I have been pondering myself (I want a bigger machine) is,
For the same price, do you buy a laser with excellent support and a primitive operating system OR a laser with a wonderful operating system and questionable (perhaps non-existent) support?
The problem would be moot if all the Chinese suppliers of lasers would get off their duffs and pool their resources and come up with a decent print driver.
If FSL can do it, they should be able to do it.

And all of the about probably hasn't helped the man who asked the original question at all.

Dennis