Hey Winton - V11 on a Washita Stone Only

[Brian Holcombe]

Fetch the cat o' nine tails.

[David Weaver]

Or visy versy. Yo ! That semi trans looks very cool; like it belongs in a sci fi movie.

And yah that is one ugly dog in the first photo. Gets the job done though obviously.

I don't know what to think about the jasper. That is so foreign. Does one flatten something like that ? and if it isn't then doesn't the lines/ crevasses beat on the edge ?
My head is swimming.

Thank you for putting those photos up by the way !

Oh...forgot the chinese stone. I guess they don't call it the chinese stone.

http://www.woodcraft.com/Product/144...34-x-1-14.aspx

Guangxi hone is a way you'll find it. Much like coticules, the bulk of this type of stone is mined for architectural use.

Far as the burnishing vs. polishing, I'm not sure how much these stones move metal and how much they remove metal, but even when settled way in, they do remove metal. Maybe it's a combination of both. It takes a little bit of skill to use them (but mostly just the desire to get results out of them and figuring out how).

I wouldn't expect to get woodworking edges akin to what Zowada gets on the razor. I'll bet his picture has sold a lot of chinese stones, but I see two problems with that:
* guangxi hones are variable. 2/3rds of them aren't that great, and 1/3rd of that 2/3rds (that's 2/9ths for the uninitiated) are too soft to be of use. No natural stone has very small particles, so if they get loose, you've got something at least on the order of 3 microns rolling around. Now, I could get an edge off of a *good* chinese stone on a razor that you wouldn't be able to differentiated between a 0.5 micron chrome ox edge, but it involves that burnishing and polishing.
* even on a great stone, we never would sharpen our tools like you would do to maximize a razor.

(what I'm saying is that you shouldn't buy a chinese stone if you don't like your oilstones - it's like a slightly less good version of an oilstone and it works on water. If it's a good one, though, it's good for razors)

Jasper - comes flat if you get it in a slab. It'll have just a few tooling marks on it, and be about 1/4" thick if you get a slab. People cut it up and make jewelry, so the sellers have to get it in what is more or less lumber for jewelry makers. If you find a big slab, for about 10 bucks you get something that can be used flat with water or WD 40, as long as you put it on a strong base (wood is fine). No need to remove any tooling marks on it. No clue on the particle size, probably similar to oilstone particles, but it cuts a little different (sharper) until it burnishes. It's much harder to lap than an oilstone - slippery hard. Nothing needs to be done with the edges unless razor sharpening is in order. It can literally be used in place of a strop, as it will remove a wire edge and not create a new one.

Steep learning curve, though. It's one of those stones that does exactly what you want it to when you learn to use it, but it doesn't do much. To someone who doesn't take the time it figure out how to use it, you just say "it doesn't do much".

With all of this novelty, though, I only care how sharp and how fast. Synthetics, washitas, etc, all work well. The chinese stone works less well so I don't use one.

[David Weaver]

By the way, with the jasper, you try not to get any large cracks, voids or foreign bits and pieces in it. The cracks on the one in the picture are tight, it doesn't affect an edge.

[Steve Bates]

Allow me to halt your slipping on another slope. Just mail that Lily White to me. I'm here to help you.

[David Weaver]

I am thinking of dumping a lot of my stones. I do have a lilywhite, too, but the label fell off (and resides in the stone's box - no sense in putting it back on a stone that's actively used).

(similar edge from both stones, though - the lilywhite just guarantees a fairly coarse stone - unless otherwise labeled - and a stone with a clear surface)

[Winton Applegate]

David,
Thank you for the further education and clarification.
I did see that Guangxi / natural water stone and was drawn to it. I am used to thinking along the lines of $600 for a natural Japanese stone of similar ilk so I guess I will pass on the $40 pot luck stone.

I was thinking "the Chinese stone" was a man made stone.

[David Weaver]

Well, I guess if you think of the $40 stone as a way to learn natural stones, it's really not a bad deal. The only good one that I ever had was from woodcraft, and they sent it to me years ago because I asked about it. At the time, I didn't have the wherewithal to actually figure out a good use for it with tools. That'd be different today, but it's not that easy to communicate. There are a lot of razor users who go to woodcraft to get those stones, but I don't know of too many woodworkers who do.

That said, a "good" stone for tools (japanese waterstone) should be doable for about $200, and that can include the mine stamp (which is useful for value - a stone from a known mine will be worth more than a stone where the mine isn't known, unless the mine is undesirable or not a kyoto/mt. atago).

Anyway, I guess I've spent anywhere between $45 and $500 on japanese stones, and while the $500 stones are nice, the stones in the $200 range are pretty much just as nice. The $500 stones are not really better than the $200 stones that I have, but I had to learn to buy the $200 stones. $200 spent wrongly can also get you junk - I have a perfect example of that in my drawer from a dishonest seller.

[Derek Cohen]

David

I have had one of these Chinese waterstones for about 7 or 8 years. I purchased it from one of the local woodwork stores. At the time Lee Valley were selling them as well, and there were some interesting - controversial - comments on the forums. I did not use it long as I found it frustrating: very hard, little if any feedback, extremely slow cutting, and I was not sure where it fitted in grit-wise (it is reputed to be between 10-12K).

Badger & Blade tag it well:

Pro’s
1.) Amazing deal, as they are inexpensive, readily available, large and all natural. A Natural Japanese Waterstone of this efficacy would cost thousands of dollars.
2.) Slow cutting… very hard to over hone, and works great for razors that “microchip” with faster cutting hones.
3.) These hones work exceptionally well, and since they are so hard after an initial lapping, you might not need to lap it ever again.
4.) These hones do not need to be soaked prior to use.

Con’s
1.) Very slow cutting – can be time consuming.
2.) Very hard – can take a long time to lap.
3.) These hones offer very little “feedback” and feel as if you are running your razor across smooth glass.
4.) Somewhat boring to use.

Perhaps I will give it another go now that I am used to ceramic stones. Here is mine. It is a grey-green colour (more grey) ...





Regards from Perth

Derek

[David Weaver]

That's fairly accurate, except for the comment about what a japanese hone of similar ilk would cost. The most similar set of japanese hones is ozukus, which are a bit harder yet. A large ozuku stone is about $300.

Anyway, I agree with your comments in principle. The issue with natural stones is adjusting technique to use the stones. I could get along fine with the stone now, it's probably easier to use than jasper or chinese agate, and it can be slurried. But what frustrated me back then was that I was just slapping my chisels and irons into a honing guide and trying to use the chinese stone the same way someone would use a synthetic stone. The big problem with that is that it doesn't cut fast enough to do that.

the other big problem with them is about 15 people sell them, and the stones are sometimes not consistent from one stone to the next. A self slurrying stone is problematic because the particles aren't necessarily that small when they're loose. I haven't heard of any natural stone to this point that has particles smaller than 3 microns, so when they get rolling around in a slurry, the result is something less than what we can get on tools from something like a shapton cream or sigma power 13k.

Oh...and one final issue, the stone is about the same color as metal swarf - you can't see anything that it's doing.

If you got a very hard one that doesn't self slurry, then that's pretty good luck. But with stuff like A2 and V11 and HSS (from terry gordon, presumably), that stone is going to be DOA. It's far better to create a gentle edge on a razor. Coincidentally, the razor universe also has a little bit of the disease of trying to use every stone the same and not learn how each stone likes to work. A chinese stone works well with a little bit of pressure, but too much is trouble on a razor. It goes back to the subtleties of everything discussion - the satisfaction is in using something new and learning the subtleties.

It sounds like it's a good time to get it back out, there is a lot of similarity with the finisher ceramics and a settled in chinese stone. Careful, though, you can gouge the chinese stones, even as hard as they seem, they are not as resistant to an errant push stroke with the corner of a chisel as a novaculite or ceramic stone is.

[Derek Cohen]

Oh...and one final issue, the stone is about the same color as metal swarf - you can't see anything that it's doing.

Yep, that's the one!

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Steve Voigt]

You want your hard ark to be a stone that does nothing but polish. it's not like waterstones where you want that final stone to cut a little bit of a bevel, they just work differently, and folks who use oilstones like they'd use waterstones are destined to be frustrated.

I'm late getting to this thread, but wanted to chime in.

It's worth pointing out that there is a range of opinions on the quote above. Larry Williams says you should abrade your stones every time you use them, so they'll cut with maximum speed. Other people go their whole lives without abrading their stones. I'm agnostic on this; I think either strategy can work just fine. For myself, I abrade them regularly, maybe once a month. More if I'm in the shop a lot of hours.

[David Weaver]

You can do it either way. You'll get a finer edge off of a stone that's not lapped.

The edge off of a translucent arkansas that is freshly lapped will be considerably less keen than the edge that I get off of a washita. But the translucent arkansas will cut quickly if it's lapped - it's got large particles floating around in a slurry on the surface, and sharp freshly exposed edges.

I prefer not to do it on my finishing stones especially. I keep a soft ark that is "awake" at all times if I need to do something that removes brisk honing....who am I kidding, I have a couple of dozen stones that are OK for that, and half a dozen of them are in oil.....but the finishers, no.

Larry also states that the stones go out of flat too quickly, but that's mostly because of the way he's using them. If he used 2" stones and overlapped the edges of his stones while he used them, he'd never need to lap due to flatness. (I know you know this already Steve, just making generalized comments). Of course, that wouldn't help the fact that he likes to have a freshly lapped stone to work with.

The closest I get to abrading any of my finer stones is to take two washitas and rub them together if one has gone completely asleep, but I haven't even done that in a while.

[Matthew N. Masail]

If someone wanted to try this idea the cheap way, a fine India stone for 20$ and compound on MDF will create a really nice edge for woodworking. I'd recommend the India over the soft or hard arks, because the ark are minutely capable in term of metal removal. the hard I got from Natural whetstone company cuts extremely well, but still it's boarder line unless your working a small bevel.

[Warren Mickley]

I'm late getting to this thread, but wanted to chime in.

It's worth pointing out that there is a range of opinions on the quote above. Larry Williams says you should abrade your stones every time you use them, so they'll cut with maximum speed. Other people go their whole lives without abrading their stones. I'm agnostic on this; I think either strategy can work just fine. For myself, I abrade them regularly, maybe once a month. More if I'm in the shop a lot of hours.

You might be happier with a soft Arkansas stone, Steve. I think you would get about the same action as an abraded Translucent stone without the trouble of having to abrade it. And you could save the translucent stone for special times when you wanted a high polish. If you cut channels into a #4 file, the file might cut like a #1 file, a lot faster, or you could just get a #1 file and save the fine file for its best use.

[william sympson]

Mathew I have been doing what you suggest. I bought a PMV11 iron to replace a W1 in my jointer back in late June and have been using the only stones I have. I freehand on a coarse/fine India, and a hard ark...it works just fine for me . I did use some HF green compound on MDF just to see if there was a noticeable difference...but I found no advantage.

I do abrade both sides of the india as needed, which hasn't been that often. FWIW, I bought the thin Stanley replacement version of the PMV11 and love it. I can get it just as sharp as the W1 but it lasts so much longer and doesn't chip out like the A2 i have!