Felder Band Saw - New Ceramic Guides

[Susumu Mori]

Hi Keith,

Unlike euro-style guides, the ceramic guides hold the blade for the entire width securely. So, the blade is definitely more stable when the blade is pushed against the rear thrust guide.

Still, I found backing-off the rear guide makes the sawing much quieter and pleasant. When you have time, you may want to try it and if so, please give me the feedback. Please make sure that the side guides are also backed off by the same amount because during the cutting, the blade should be pushed back and the garrets may touch the side ceramics.

[Johannes Schreiner]

Hi.

Just found this nice thread by browsing the forum... and I might add some of my own latest thoughs .

I've got the X-Life guides for about 4 months now, on a Hammer N4400. About 300 EUR for both (upper/lower) here in Germany btw. Not a real bargain, I know and I was quite contemplating about purchasing it for almost a year. The quite interresting prices for their Hammer bandsaw/s get quite high, when thinking about some extras... So I'm still lurking for the extension table/s as well, but I'd rather build something, than spending an other 300 EUR on the bandsaw. The saw (N4400) is a great powerhorse (3 phase, 400v), but kinda rough and kinda 'basic'... Its not perfect. But I know what a new hema or a vintage german cast iron dinosaur does cost here . Overall: I like it, and I like to use it and the X-life guides made a good (and still economical) tool even a little better. If I could give advice to someone who is considering to buy a Hammer I'd say:

- ! not to buy the N3800 (it leaves me puzzled why they sell it)
- if the N4400 is what You're looking for, then consider the 3 Phase motor if possible, and get it with the X-life guides already included
- if You can pay for a 'more & better' in many details, consider the Felder line (e.g. 610)
- if You saw for Your bread and butter: get a Hema. Hehe. No offense ment .

I upgraded from the Hammer/Felder standard guides. I've had much worse (china made) euro- style guides on a 1 HP Metabo once, no (!) comparision. The standard roller guides are fine indeed and if there werent the ceramics, I would still be somewhat happy with them.

OK- methinks, 4 months useage are not long ennought use to write a real big review, but maybe 'nough to sum up the changes this new guides made for my work:

PRO:
- the rolls of the standard guides tend to get worn quickly- especially if stuck. And they stuck often on mine, when finest dust and resin made its way into 'em. The X-life wont. There is no movin' part.
Just keep the knobs and screws clean.
- wear?, none by now. But they wont last eternally, as I see how they 'polish' the blades sides on contact. Can be replaced anyway.
- nearly no noise. The rollers of the standard guides were scraky and noisy sometimes. Especially on curves and when manual 'force' is applied on a dulling blade.
- adjustment is faster now. Changing blades is faster now, indeed. No, no stopwatch test available from me.
- stability of adjustment is better/perfect. The standard rollers had a bad tendency on 'getting open' (unlock) from time to time. Cheap machinery I'd say. But... remembering the Metabo it was still absolutely OK.
But, If You ever met a perfectly machined HEMA or Panhans guide, You would simply call it a pain. The X- life now dont move and dont change, once set.
- better accuracy on deep blades. I got 3 sets on 25mm blades (1"), mainly for resawing fresh wood (huge saber teeth) or just straight cuts in layered wood (finer toothing)- cuts are straight as a laser now.
I really dont do veneer, but I literally could do some paper thin sheets now
- when I got the N4400 at first, I managed to flatten the sewing of a blade while cutting curves. Bad setup of the guides, so my fault- sure, but I guess this wont happen so fast on a properly set ceramic
upper guide, than with the common euro style rollers.

NEUTRAL:
- curves cut the same way- not easier, not worse. It might be a tid bit better on a 6mm blade, but not worth mentioning.

Cons:
- Now it takes a little extra time to put on my carter bandsaw guide (that grooved- bearing- thingy for 4mm blades). This needs the lower part of the 'old' upper guide to hold on the saw. Thats all.
No issue- just uncomfortable.
- I never found out HOW to get a 6mm band right into the lower guides without adding sets of 2-3 washers behind them. It seems not to be made for bands >10mm. And, if using a narrow band,
the lower guide's mounting is extended to full max. - what makes it unnecessary flimsy to set right. A longer mounting could help. I'll tell that to our FELDER deal soon.
If someone constatly uses narrow bands on the N4400, it might be quite helpful to keep the massive mounting rod of the standard lower guides mounted. But then... You wont be able to use a
band wider than appx. 16mm ;(.
- one of the 'Kipp' clamps broke by fastening it first time (plastic lever, made in germany btw). Replaced with a sturdier version...
- Price tag. The 300 EUR they want here is hefty. Even for both. So consider to buy it with Your new Felder/Hammer saw in a set, probably.

Kind regards,

Johannes

[ian maybury]

Thanks Johann. It's hard to know just how much ceramic guides add. Could be that the benefit is pretty situation specific too, in that the guides on a big old saw that's plenty strong don't seem to play much of a part in blade control.

A lightweight bandsaw at or exceeding it's resaw depth capability will often start to vibrate quite badly. As in there's noise and disruption of the cut, but nothing very visually obvious happening to the blade other than maybe some drift setting in. I can't be sure, but testing by holding a slip of wood to the blade as this was happening (on my old saw) suggested that there was quite a lot of lengthwise vibration taking place. This might even have entailed rotational oscillation of the relatively light aluminium wheels and the blade as an assembly, and/or possibly some sort of vibration in the (not stiff enough) tensioning spring and maybe even the chassis too.

It seems that it's possible to set ceramic guides tight against the blade without causing a heating issue, and it's struck me that perhaps they may be useful for this reason to damp out this sort of vibration - which might mean that proportionally they help more on a marginal saw. Could be the benefit is somewhat setting dependent too.

You're not keen on the N3800. People seem occasionally to get stuck on making a call between it and N4400. It seems lighter in some respects, but what have you seen to be the main differences? Any experience of the performance differences?

PS I had the Kipp clamp secirng the fence fail on first touch on an A3 410 planer too - it looked like there was a defect in the bronze stud.

[Keith Outten]

Thanks guys for the feedback. The ripping quality is the most important to me as I stopped using my table saw and use my Felder Band Saw to rip lumber now. Changing from the OEM blade to the new Lennox blade made such a huge improvement it made it more difficult to establish whether the blade of the new ceramic guides were responsible for such a vast improvement. No doubt that both of these changes contributed to better performance and to be perfectly honest the saw was respectable even with the OEM blade and the original guides installed.

I have a smaller band saw to use for radius work so its unlikely I will ever use a smaller blade on the Felder. I have never used a band saw that I enjoy more than the Felder FB610, its the saw I have always wanted.
.

[Johannes Schreiner]

Hi Ian.


Well... that little too rigorous, but well intentioned hint (n4400 rather than n3800) was not based on a practical comparision by testing both Hammer bs models before buying the bigger one.


I just tried the n4400 right after inspecting some Scheppach and Metabo bs of similar size and cost, found the n4400 best of all I've seen AND I could afford- and indeed ignored the brand new smaller sister n3800 after reading its tec specs...
I dont even know someone getting the smaller scaled saw since it came out. All went straight for the N4400- if they choosed a Hammer. I'd say, because of the price difference between the both, which is rather small, 250 Eur I remember. For this little advantage, the performance suffers much by the shrinking. For me: too much less performance. Look at the wattage (3 phase models), wheel size, table size, just the height for cutting is (theoretically) same, afaik.
But... seriously. It would not be there if there would not be a market for a (even) more compact, lighter, cheaper Hammer/model. And woodworkers doing small scale jobs in relatively confined spaces might absolutely treasure it. But, I'm not sure on this, because otherwise its not *that much* smaller, anyway.




If the ceramic guides will solve Your well described oscilliations- I'm not sure. If its a saw working on its limits- marginally as You wrote, I dont even think so. A band, thats new and sharp-as-hell might do a lot of a difference. Right set/design of teething in that case might be a must as well.


If it only shows on a certain blade, call it guilty... Mostly, I learned, that blade dancing and 'bending' away rythmically is a result of the blade itself. It might be duller as You think or the sewing (twist of teeth) is already gone and it vibrates. If the set/desing of its teeth are wrong for the purpose, it begins to clog fast as well. If it makes noise and lots of heat, there's mainly the reason/s.


I only use the thinner 'flexback' blades on the Hammer now- but I remember that the cheaper 'standard' blades of thicker carbon steel were not to be tensioned ennough on my smaller Metabo that time- resulting in a similar effect. The closer set ceramics guides wont stop this entirely. I'm not a bs expert, but here is what I've noticed:


1. too much tension to get blades straight, might stress the (steel) chassis and the wheels bearings.
Okay... 'chassis' is theory. I never noticed this, exceped on very cheap/small saws.
The N4400 is at its very end I feel when using my 1" blades. I use to set the blade tension at over 30mm
to 35mm equivalent to make it stiff ennought. On a smaller saw, one might get problems with the wheels
running for a long time at an high overtension (without breaking the blade)- I guess.

2. a bad soldering point: I've had this on a custom made 10mm blade. Every time the soldering passed
it 'jumped' a little. A frequency that shivered the whole 150 Kg of the machine. Besides, there was a noticeable 'turning' of the blade and an ungood sound from the (standard) guides as well. I returned it fast. The exchange was ok then.


3. deformation by storage or being left under tension for too long. One of my small 6mm bands was delivered in a hand sized roll... Folding it out, i noticed little 'buckling' due to that deformation. Loading it into the hammer resulted in a similar rythm. And, I could see it 'bending' left/right (even) under much higher tension- without cutting btw, just watching it run. Effect went away completely after a while of using it.
I always turn the spring down after use (I learned it that way). I can imagine that there is a certain memory in a steel band, when resting still under full tension for a while. Similar to rubber belts in a belt drive. Result might be a wobble- unsure if that goes away with using it again afterwards.


4. worn or dirty rubbers on the wheels. Common for vibrations- but nor for what You described.


5. displacement of rubber band on the wheels. Same. Never had this. But worth a double check.


6. wheels not adjusted properly together. As the hammer 'wants' the bands to be nested on the edge of the flat rubber sole (teeth sewing is left off the rubber) and not on the hilltop middle (like on crowned rubbers), I feel its not ideal for the applied forces, and an adjustment is careful to be set- unless You like to flatten down the twist of the sewing if unnoticed... However, especially on new bands it has to be checked and re- adjusted from time to time. If forgotten, I notice the blade bending as well (in one direction).

7. wrong blade. I own an exta fine 16mm blade. Nice for 10-12mm plywood. But using this on e.g. fresh wood / multi layered stuff thicker than appx 3" results in clogging the whole cut in seconds. The blade begins to wander off, turn away, stall.


Hm. I hope that helped a little .
And... excuse my horrible english...


Kind regards,
Johannes

[Ben Rivel]

Bumping an old thread here:

Ive got an N4400 with the Hammer ceramic guides and was wondering if its still possible to use a Carter Stabilizer with these guides installed. The normally recommended Carter Stabilizer (model JET1) I have only seen used with the Euro guides installed. Anyone found a stabilizer thatll work with the ceramic guides installed? Or by chance would a stabilizer not be needed due to the design of the ceramic guides?

[Erik Loza]

Bumping an old thread here:

Ive got an N4400 with the Hammer ceramic guides and was wondering if its still possible to use a Carter Stabilizer with these guides installed. The normally recommended Carter Stabilizer (model JET1) I have only seen used with the Euro guides installed. Anyone found a stabilizer thatll work with the ceramic guides installed? Or by chance would a stabilizer not be needed due to the design of the ceramic guides?

Typically, you take the entire guide unit off and replace it with the Stabilizer. At least that's how I've done it. You're working with the horizontal round post, not anything to do with the stock guides.

Erik

[Ben Rivel]

Typically, you take the entire guide unit off and replace it with the Stabilizer. At least that's how I've done it. You're working with the horizontal round post, not anything to do with the stock guides.

Erik

Ah! That would make more sense. So just the upper guide would be removed and the lower guide would stay on?

[Mike Chalmers]

No, lower guide is removed as well.

[Ben Rivel]

No, lower guide is removed as well.

Oh man, what a pain. Taking those on and off every time I want to use a thin blade would annoying me I think. I didnt realize that was how it would work.

[Erik Loza]

Oh man, what a pain. Taking those on and off every time I want to use a thin blade would annoying me I think. I didnt realize that was how it would work.

We kept a 14" bandsaw in the shop specifically for 1/4" blades. It was just easier than swapping all that stuff out whenever you wanted to make a delicate cut.

Erik

[Johannes Schreiner]

Hi,

I do rarely use the Carter guide... I rather jump to my scroll saw for fine curves and tiny stuff of possible. As said, ceramic or euro guides don't matter. As both are to be taken off. You just might need the 20mm bar that goes with the euro guides as the ceramic blocks setup does not have such (*). Might be a problem if someone bought the saw with a ceramic guide set ready. However, Taking off the upper and lower guides is not a problem. But putting them on again and the necessary adjustment is quite as annoying as time consuming.

Johannes

(*): made a quick photo to show both...

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