Truck costs are a much larger % of income..........

[Larry Edgerton]

I just bought a new F150 this week. When I went into business twentysome years ago I bought a new F150 that was very similar, 1/2 ton, 2x4, 8'box, 6cyl. That truck cost me $11800. My new one had a sticker of $27800, but I got a $3000 rebate because I was trading in a Ranger, so $24800. In that same time period all of my other expenses have increase as much as 400%.

The problem is that when I went into business my rates were a bit high at $30 site, $45 shop. Today I am again a little high at the same rates. I have tried to raise them but get underbid by the skilsaw and hammer crowd, guys that are not carrying insurance, licences, etc.

Things are not looking so good for the working class.........

Larry

[Jason Roehl]

The good news is that the new F150 should get quite a bit better mileage (50%-ish better) than the old one. (Never mind that gas is 3 times what it was 20 years ago...)

I've actually sold jobs because my rate was higher than my competition. It doesn't happen all the time, but I emphasize my quality, longevity in business, use of quality materials, etc. over their likely fly-by-night pricing or lack of experience and quality.

But, yeah, most people have no clue what it costs to be in the trades and still put food on the table. I still run into people who think $10/hr would be fair to pay a self-employed painter (who, of course, maintains his own vehicle, tools, insurance, etc.).

[Mark Bolton]

The good news is that the new F150 should get quite a bit better mileage (50%-ish better) than the old one. (Never mind that gas is 3 times what it was 20 years ago...)

I've actually sold jobs because my rate was higher than my competition. It doesn't happen all the time, but I emphasize my quality, longevity in business, use of quality materials, etc. over their likely fly-by-night pricing or lack of experience and quality.

But, yeah, most people have no clue what it costs to be in the trades and still put food on the table. I still run into people who think $10/hr would be fair to pay a self-employed painter (who, of course, maintains his own vehicle, tools, insurance, etc.).

And no offense at all Jason but you are in one of the hardest trades, perhaps only equaled by landscaping or lawn service, in the eyes of the consumer. I have spent my entire career trying to educate customers on quality paint and finish but its astounding that even the ones who have openly espoused how much they loved their quality paint job, with quality paint, and how long it lasted, will in an instant say "well cheap paint is fine, just slap it up". Its just a constant process of education and sadly the customer base that is willing to even hear the pitch is ever shrinking.

I have been reading on commercial forums that there is a buzz about things coming back a bit and that high end will be leading the comeback. I personally just dont see it but Im not in any of the major markets to even have an idea.

Its a tough situation in my opinion and I have been in the process of doing much of what I think Larry has been and thats streamlining, getting to a cash basis (no debt/mortgages/high rents), "all under one roof" so to speak. The sad part about that is it puts you in a position to settle for ever lower rates for your work because of the lower overhead but I do wonder if those type operations will be the ones to make it through the long haul.

[David Weaver]

There's a lot of commercial work here. I've got no clue about residential because my neighborhood isn't an "it" neighborhood where people take out big loans and spend big bucks.

As far as the ones who talk about a quality paint job, value is the customers choice. If customers want inexpensive paint, then it sounds like you want to serve that market. I buy quality paint, my dad doesn't, and neither does FIL. both would rather put up 5 coats of behr to cover the same as two coats of sherwin williams. Their money is still green for things that they won't paint, though.

Every business sees that, including the types that work in offices - customer might want the best but they choose otherwise when the numbers show up.

[Malcolm Schweizer]

I have always driven classic cars, moslty air cooled VW's but also Willys Jeeps, and a '57 Chevy. I recently broke down and bought two new(er) Jeeps at a government auction for 1/2 the blue book. Actually I bought three, and sold one for double what I paid, so ultimately I got two Jeeps for $6500 total all said and done, with 6500 miles on one, 7000 on the other. (US Customs vehicles that they only used to drive around the airport.)

I say all of the above to set up this humorous story- I have no clue what new cars cost. I was talking with a friend who gets a car stipend at work, and he is required to own a car 3 years old or less to get the stipend. I said, "Wow, I couldn't buy a $20,000 car every three years even with the stipend." He laughed so hard he almost cried. WHAT???? $20k will buy a new car, right? Apparently I have no clue about new car prices. So I asked how much his Volvo cost, and almost died: $58,000!!!! ACK!!!! Okay, so that's a Volvo, so a new reasonable American car- $25k? He was still laughing at me. Wow. I really had no clue. He apologized for laughing and I said, "No, it's okay, I am laughing too. I never realized how out of touch with modern car prices I was."

Anyway, I would buy a new-ish car maybe a year or two old, and save a ton over what you'd pay for brand new. When you drive it away it is immediately worth less. Take my advice with a grain of salt (see above) but that's my thought- especially if it is a work truck.

[Mark Bolton]

I have always driven classic cars, moslty air cooled VW's but also Willys Jeeps, and a '57 Chevy. I recently broke down and bought two new(er) Jeeps at a government auction for 1/2 the blue book. Actually I bought three, and sold one for double what I paid, so ultimately I got two Jeeps for $6500 total all said and done, with 6500 miles on one, 7000 on the other. (US Customs vehicles that they only used to drive around the airport.)

I say all of the above to set up this humorous story- I have no clue what new cars cost. I was talking with a friend who gets a car stipend at work, and he is required to own a car 3 years old or less to get the stipend. I said, "Wow, I couldn't buy a $20,000 car every three years even with the stipend." He laughed so hard he almost cried. WHAT???? $20k will buy a new car, right? Apparently I have no clue about new car prices. So I asked how much his Volvo cost, and almost died: $58,000!!!! ACK!!!! Okay, so that's a Volvo, so a new reasonable American car- $25k? He was still laughing at me. Wow. I really had no clue. He apologized for laughing and I said, "No, it's okay, I am laughing too. I never realized how out of touch with modern car prices I was."

Anyway, I would buy a new-ish car maybe a year or two old, and save a ton over what you'd pay for brand new. When you drive it away it is immediately worth less. Take my advice with a grain of salt (see above) but that's my thought- especially if it is a work truck.

Much the same boat here. My girlfriend gets a kick out of going clothes shopping with me and we walk in a sporting goods store and I see an underarmor shirt and I say man, I cant believe people pay like 40-50 bucks for a shirt. She has the same reaction as your friend telling me "that shirt probably costs 80-100 dollars, look at the tag!!". I look and see 85.00 or something and proceed to soil my underpants.

I am aware of truck prices only because several locals tell me what they have paid. When I hear of people buying brand new extended/quad/4 door pickups, 4wd, possibly diesel, and paying 50-60-70k I am just flabberghasted. And of course many of them rarely if ever see a pebble or a sheet of anything in the bed. Its just crazy, but like the ol' John Prine song "Thats the way the world go round".

I too am a fan of particular year jeeps and grand cherokee's. Some of them are just bullet proof and sherman tanks. They will run forever. That said, maintaining older vehicles is a costly endeavor at times and when you have to factor that cost, and your man hours, into the cost of your business for me at least it can get a little trying. Its not to say having a new vehicle guarantee's you reliability, lemons are everywhere, but thats always the hope.

I for some reason have a hard time getting my head around paying 20-30k for a pre-owned car. Its just a personal hangup. I guess for some reason I always think of being at the ends of the spectrum. 10K or less and I work on it, or I happen to be on a good streak and buy new. I'd imagine Im overlooking the sweetspot in the middle there somewhere. I just cant see many average cars being worth 30-40-50k.

[Larry Edgerton]

I have always driven classic cars, moslty air cooled VW's but also Willys Jeeps, and a '57 Chevy. I recently broke down and bought two new(er) Jeeps at a government auction for 1/2 the blue book. Actually I bought three, and sold one for double what I paid, so ultimately I got two Jeeps for $6500 total all said and done, with 6500 miles on one, 7000 on the other. (US Customs vehicles that they only used to drive around the airport.)

I say all of the above to set up this humorous story- I have no clue what new cars cost. I was talking with a friend who gets a car stipend at work, and he is required to own a car 3 years old or less to get the stipend. I said, "Wow, I couldn't buy a $20,000 car every three years even with the stipend." He laughed so hard he almost cried. WHAT???? $20k will buy a new car, right? Apparently I have no clue about new car prices. So I asked how much his Volvo cost, and almost died: $58,000!!!! ACK!!!! Okay, so that's a Volvo, so a new reasonable American car- $25k? He was still laughing at me. Wow. I really had no clue. He apologized for laughing and I said, "No, it's okay, I am laughing too. I never realized how out of touch with modern car prices I was."

Anyway, I would buy a new-ish car maybe a year or two old, and save a ton over what you'd pay for brand new. When you drive it away it is immediately worth less. Take my advice with a grain of salt (see above) but that's my thought- especially if it is a work truck.

The prices that used work trucks are bringing actually make a new one with a warranty a better deal up here. We only have about six years before the salt gets them so if I buy one three years old for 50% of new cost I am getting the worst half of the miles for the same money. Keep in mind the truck I bought is as cheap as they get. Crank windows and all. I used to go South to get one but the increased expenses of cross country travel have taken the shine off of that prospect. I actually was looking at a low mile used one in Texas, but when all was said and done new was cheaper and a lot less headache. I drive over 30K miles a year currently, but hope to change that soon and stay closer to home.

Larry

[Ole Anderson]

If customers want inexpensive paint, then it sounds like you want to serve that market. I buy quality paint, my dad doesn't, and neither does FIL. both would rather put up 5 coats of behr to cover the same as two coats of sherwin williams.

I know this is off the OP's topic, sorry, but Behr is a very good paint, top rated by Consumers Union year after year at nearly half the cost of S-W and I hate to see it slammed as an aside. I just perfectly covered medium-dark blue mudroom walls with two coats of Behr Premium Plus in an off white. I wouldn't use anything else unless I need a self leveling cabinet paint. End rant.

[David Weaver]

I've had the opposite experience with behr. It covers in two coats if it's painted over a similar color, but if painted on a bare wall over primer, it looks a bit thin. It also has a bad habit of clinging to tape and tearing when tape is removed, something that sherwin williams paint does not do.

The criticism I saw of sherwin williams paint (other than the price if you don't get it on sale) is that it is so thick with solids that you can't work it after you apply it (which is fine with me).

I painted my new room, and put two coats on the inside of a primed door with sherwin williams, and bought behr for the outside of the door after letting them color match it at HD. I had to put 5 coats on. It was an exterior paint instead of interior, but I've used a lot of behr on the interior (bathroom, living room, bedrooms, etc) and in my opinion, it's just an inferior product all around when you're working with it and you want to do the job once and get it right.

My FIL likes to apply the behr, because he's used to it, despite the fact that it tears with the tape, so if he paints in our house (which he likes to do now that he's retired, who is going to argue with that?) that's what we buy for him to use. He likes to work the paint a lot after he applies it, and i don't. We put some patches of various colors on the wall, and it caused him fits because he had to go over the wall that had them about 4 times with behr paint. Actually, it would've caused me fits, but it didn't seem to bother him that much.

So, is it tolerable? I guess so, I tolerated it for years - it was the only thing I used because it was close by and I was trying to buy the cheapest decent paint I could find (I think the premium plus is probably the base that I used). Now that I've used sherwin williams primer and their good interior paints, I won't buy behr again, though. S-W is more expensive, but it's not that expensive if gotten as part of deals.

Strangely enough, when I was reading up about paints, i saw some accounts of contractors saying that some of their crews preferred valspar to S-W, so they separated the guys on each crew based on preference and bought S-W for one, and valspar for another, but I didn't see any pro painters mention behr, and after using S-W, I can see why. All of the little things about it are better.

As a nod to mark, I was always cheap on paint before my contractor gave me paint codes for S-W (to match what we wanted, and to match the windows that came with the room), but I followed the contractor's suggestion. I would've bought behr that time too, but my contractor said basically the same things I found out - they didn't like that behr failed to cover in two coats sometimes and it didn't dry as fast as S-W.

[Tom M King]

I know it's not the most financially advisable way to do it, but it's less painful to me in the long run to make one payment on a vehicle, and drive it until it drops, even though they are well taken care of.. Current truck bought new in 2001, it's a diesel dually, and still has lots of life in it. no payments for 13 years now.

I wouldn't even talk about working for 30 or 40 bucks an hour. With a reputation, people come looking for you. Want fast and cheap, don't waste my time.

[Mark Bolton]

I wouldn't even talk about working for 30 or 40 bucks an hour. With a reputation, people come looking for you. Want fast and cheap, don't waste my time.

I am in agreement. I think the 45/hour rate gets commonly tossed around because its a well know standard that that is basically the dead minimum you can stay in business at. On paper in a 50 week year (which would be very rare for someone self employed in the trade) that equates to 90k gross. Once you take out taxes, licensing, insurance, and so on, your sunk. I wouldnt say its impossible depending on the breadth of whatever work your doing but I dont think there would be much left over at the end of the year regardless.

[David Weaver]

You gotta be able to bill all of those hours in a 50 week year to get to 90k gross, too, which in reality means working extra hours during the day and some weekends.

If you have a spouse and kids, that puts a pinch on that. Better to have a working spouse with health insurance, that way you can write off the licensing and business insurance, and vehicle expenses but not get pummeled by health insurance costs.

[Mark Bolton]

You gotta be able to bill all of those hours in a 50 week year to get to 90k gross, too, which in reality means working extra hours during the day and some weekends.

If you have a spouse and kids, that puts a pinch on that. Better to have a working spouse with health insurance, that way you can write off the licensing and business insurance, and vehicle expenses but not get pummeled by health insurance costs.

You got that right. Hopefully your rate includes some office time (in which case your rate billed to the customer would be higher) but for sure, the office hours, hours at the mechanic getting your truck repaired, at the accountant, all of it, those are all billable hours.

[Tom M King]

I am in agreement. I think the 45/hour rate gets commonly tossed around because its a well know standard that that is basically the dead minimum you can stay in business at. On paper in a 50 week year (which would be very rare for someone self employed in the trade) that equates to 90k gross. Once you take out taxes, licensing, insurance, and so on, your sunk. I wouldnt say its impossible depending on the breadth of whatever work your doing but I dont think there would be much left over at the end of the year regardless.

I wouldn't talk about 45 either. it was 50 some years ago. Get up to 65, and we'll talk. Even young guys around here with what tools they can get in pickup toolbox are getting 50. You have to pay all your SS in self-employment tax, your own health insurance. if you have to be dependent on a wife to work, and Hve benefits, go get a job as an employee somewhere. you are doing people a favor working for 40 or 45. If you are in business to do people favors, that's one thing. i'm not

[Mark Bolton]

I wouldn't talk about 45 either. it was 50 some years ago. Get up to 65, and we'll talk. Even young guys around here with what tools they can get in pickup toolbox are getting 50. You have to pay all your SS in self-employment tax, your own health insurance. if you have to be dependent on a wife to work, and Hve benefits, go get a job as an employee somewhere. you are doing people a favor working for 40 or 45. If you are in business to do people favors, that's one thing. i'm not

Again, agreed.. Im right there with ya. That said, I have honestly never worked in an area where guys with tools in a pickup tool box were ever even remotely worth 50 and hour as a stand alone guy. Im talking just your average carpenter. So I guess I would either love to be in your area if the skill level is that high, or hate to be in your area for the pain it would cause my, and my customers, wallet.

A common rate around here for two men, and an equipped vehicle (van or truck) is 90 an hour. It often bills out at 800 a day. Thats from the time they get rolling in the morning til' the time they get back so it includes supply house/yard time and so on. Thats a rate the company would bill for those two guys. Its common to have commercial electricians and so on billing at 700-800 a day for a guy with a helper.

Now we both know, thats day work. When you fold it into a large job things are much different.