Source for her back saw/dovetail saw components?

[Mike Allen1010]

I have really enjoyed looking at the many beautiful and functional backsaws/dovetail saw that have been built by contributors to this forum. I have finally worked up the courage to give it a try myself. I would prefer to buy the components for Mike W. but understand that it's not currently possible. I know I can purchase the saw kits, including sharpened blades from Gramercy, but that's a little out of my price range.

I'm looking for suggestions about where I might be able to purchase slotted brass for the saw backs and spring steel for the blades? I would prefer slotted brass over fold brass given I don't have any metal working tools even a metal vice. If I can't get slotted brass backs, I guess I could fold flat brass stock myself with my twin screw,woodworking bench vice, but I'm afraid I might not be able to get it straight.

From one I've seen here at Neanderthal Heaven, I believe the most appropriate steel would be "1095", but I know nothing about metalworking and would appreciate any comments or suggestions from the many expert and knowledgeable contributors here!

I am interested in blade thicknesses of .018", .020" and .025" - is it possible to buy the appropriate type of spring steel in these thicknesses?

I have built many replacement handles and sharpen/set many vintage hand saws, but have never built any from scratch and really appreciate any guidance or suggestions.

Thanks in advance, Mike Allen

[george wilson]

You can buy 1095 spring steel from MSC,McMaster Carr,or any of several suppliers. It is available in many thicknesses and widths suitable for back saws. I suggest .015" thickness for dovetail saws. I used to buy 1095 in large sheets,and can't recall off hand how much you have to purchase at minimum. You might have to buy a 6' strip,for example. There are packages of blue spring steel shim stock available that you might look into.

[Lance Gomes]

Mike,

Over on the Norse Woodsmith, Lief did a series of posts on making a backsaw from scratch, including a source for the steel.
The link is here: http://norsewoodsmith.com/content/backsaw-project

He also has a pdf on that page that condenses the series into one file.

Really cool stuff! Someday....... (sigh)

-Lance

[Bryan Ericson]

Another option for the back is to go the laminate route, and hold the spine on with brass rod and/or epoxy:
This avoids the problems of finding slotted brass stock or accurately bending the stock.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

While we're talking saw parts, any good sources for brass saw nuts, (besides salvage?) Wenzloff isn't taking orders (I hope everything works out for them.) and I have a couple from TFWW, but I'd like to try making a new handle for one of my carcase saws, and I'd like to try making the handle a bit thicker than the 7/8" the TFWW nuts were designed for. I think it's what makes the handle of the Adria dovetail saw more comfortable to me.

[Andrew Teich]

Try bad axe tool works for some of the saw parts, nuts and medallions. I was browsing the selection looking for options if I learn to sharpen well enough on my really rusty old disston that I should actually try to restore it into a usefule state.

[Mike Allen1010]

George, thanks a lot for your suggestion about McMaster-Carr. I checked their online catalog and the 1095 blue spring steel shim stock you mentioned looks like what I'm looking for. They also have the brass 260 alloy sheet stock and rods for laminating the saw back to the blade.

Bryan, I also appreciate your suggestion about laminating brass sheet stock with epoxy and brass rods to the saw plate on the back. This seems like the simplest route for me to go given my lack of serious metal working/metal bending tools.

I was thinking of using 3/4" wide by 1/8" thick 260 alloy brass sheet and laminating both pieces to the saw plate with epoxy. Once it dries, I would use a series of progressively larger drill to drill the 1/4 inch diameter holes all the way through the lamination for the quarter inch brass rod (no drill press). Any suggestions about how to "peen" the brass rod once it's been inserted, would I just used the back of the ball peen hammer? Seems kind of messy -- maybe a punch?

Thanks a lot guys, as always your advice has been extremely helpful! Once I get started I'll post some pictures (provided it doesn't turn out to be a horrible disaster!).

Thanks again, Mike

[Pedder Petersen]

Any suggestions about how to "peen" the brass rod once it's been inserted, would I just used the back of the ball peen hammer? Seems kind of messy -- maybe a punch?

Hi Mike,

Tim Hoffman has a full instruction on how to make laminated spines: http://sprucemill.blogspot.com/2008/...n-woodnet.html

Cheers
Pedder

[george wilson]

You will not be able to drill holes through the 1095 saw steel with a HSS drill. A masonry drill will do it. I run mine fast. The speed and friction takes the temper out of the steel,and the carbide scoops it out. Be careful to not let the drill get too hot,though,or the brazing will melt,and the carbide bit will come loose from the drill body.

IF I were to make a saw back by laminating brass,I'd take the 2 side pieces,and a third center layer the thickness of the saw blade. This I'd drill several holes through all the layers,and countersink the outer pieces. Then,put brass pins made of the SAME allow as the rest of the back,peen them to fill up the countersunk areas,and draw file flush. I don't trust epoxy to not someday let go and have the back fall apart.

If you don't use brass pins of the same alloy as the back,they will show of a different color and be obvious.

[Mike Allen1010]

A quick question for those of you with experience/advice into making a laminated brass back for a built from scratch dovetail saw;

Once I have laminated with epoxy the spring steel saw plate between the two pieces of brass sheet stock and have drilled/punched 1/4" diameter holes through the entire lamination, would it be sufficient to simply epoxy 1/4 inch round brass rod through each hole, or do I need to tap the holes and use threaded rod?

I'm thinking as long as I have a tight friction fit between the brass rod and the holes in the laminated saw back, epoxy I will/holes along both sides of the lamination would be enough to keep everything solid?

I could go the threaded route but don't want to if it isn't necessary.

I appreciate any advice or suggestions,

Mike Allen

[Trevor Walsh]

I've peened practice double dovetails and other brass work including rivets, it's not all that difficult as it sounds, and would, I think, be much less messy/prone to delaminating than epoxied pins. A tight friction fit will also not leave any room for the pins, they will squeegee the epoxy right out of the holes. I think threaded is also overkill. all you need to do is countersink the holes a touch to give the pin some hold.

[Steve Branam]

Hi Mike,

Tim Hoffman has a full instruction on how to make laminated spines: http://sprucemill.blogspot.com/2008/...n-woodnet.html

Cheers
Pedder

That's cool! I'll have to give that a try!

[Mike Allen1010]

I wanted to share a progress report on my first attempt at making backsaws. Many thanks to George Wilson for his suggestions about sources for obtaining 1095 spring steel and brass.

Also thanks to Pedder Brockman for his directions to Tim Hoffman's tutorial on how to make laminated blades/backs.

I'm only part way through the project but wanted to share a couple lessons learned from other for others who might be interested:

1) 1095 Spring steel in a wide range of thicknesses (.015-.035, etc.) for most configurations of dovetail and backsaws is readily available and fairly inexpensive. I paid about $16 for enough steel to make 2 saws. Roughing out saw plates was easy using a Dremel tool with cutoff wheel and snapping along the score line in a vice.


back saws1.JPG
2) 1/8" thick brass sheet for saw backs is the expensive part -- I paid about $90 for enough to make 5 saws (see pictures below). The brass sheet was 36" x 4". Cutting it into 3/4" wide strips was noisy, time-consuming and inaccurate (not to mention sweaty) with a scroll saw (not recommended!)! After the first one, I found a machine shop that accurately sheared the sheet into 3/4" wide strips for $10.

3) Just like George told me, I couldn't drill 1/4" diameter holes in the spring steel, but a $20 hand press from HF worked great.
back saw 2.JPG

4) Peening the brass rod into the 1/4" holes through the laminated saw backs was the tricky part. I learned better to make the brass rods too long rather than too short, otherwise they don't completely fill the holes. Secondly, peening the brass rods must have created stress that caused one of my saw plates to kink badly. I'm not sure if you can see the kinked plate vs.a straight plate in the pictures below.

back saw 5.JPGback saw 4.JPG

5) Peening the brass rods through the laminated saw backs and all the cleanup with files and sandpaper was a lot of work and in my inexperienced hands seem to create some stresses to the saw plate I would like to avoid.

If you could find some solid brass bar and find someone who could mill a straight slot the same thickness as the saw black that would seem to me to be a much easier way to go. Secondly, there must be some kind of reliable epoxy that would eliminate the need for peening the brass rods altogether? Any suggestions?

As you can see, I have handle blanks/templates ready to go and am waiting on split nuts from TFWW. Once they arrive, I will cut out, drill and shape handles and saw back mortices. Last step will be filing teeth -- I'm sure that will burn through lots of files and sweat!
back saw 6.JPG

Based on progress to date the outcome still seems kind of iffy. My whole goal in building versus buying vintage backsaws was to get straight, stiff saw plates in the thicknesses I wanted -- that objective still seems to be in doubt! In summary, not a homerun or a strikeout -- more like a solid single so far.

I'll post more pictures when I'm done. Thanks again to all the Creekers for all the helpful advice and suggestions!
back saw 3.JPG
Mike Allen

[george wilson]

Don't peen the brass pins too hard,or they can distort the blades(as you found out). I don't make backs this way,but in any situation,over peening leads to trouble.

[Lynn Bradford]

Check out Paul Sellers video on cutting new teeth.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTqZTGPPRj0

Lynn