What qualities make a "better" chisel worth the cost?

[Frederick Skelly]

Im going to buy a 1/8" chisel. I found a Narex for $7.50 and an Ashley Iles for $32.

If its ok with you folks, could we please ignore the brand names for a moment? Im trying to understand something more fundamental because (honestly) Im terribly ignorant about chisels and want to learn a bit. I think I understand that the steel can make a big difference. From various sharpening threads Ive got the basic concepts of that; e.g., changing the type of steel can change how sharp you can get a blade, and/or how long the edge will last between touch-ups.

But at the handtool newbie level, a chisel is just a piece of good steel with a well made, strong handle. Of course I know better, but learning why is the point of this thread. What else makes one chisel higher quality than another?

Ive learned enough from you folks that I could probably answer this question for hand planes. I mean, its pretty clear why a LN plane is better than a Buck Brothers or Kobalt. But planes have far more to them than a chisel seems to.

Will you please teach me?

Thank you!
Fred

[David Weaver]

I've had ashley iles and narex. The cost to manufacture the two makes the difference in price there, but I was never impressed with the ashley iles chisels for their supposed hardness. The one thing "better" about them is that they are oil hardening steel while narex chisels are some kind of more common steel that is likely air hardening (and a bit more gummy). At least of the types I've used.

I've had two sets of AI chisels, though, and neither held an edge like you'd expect oil hardening steel to hold an edge. They didn't hold an edge any better than my softer vintage chisels that are inexpensive. Maybe I just has some duds. (I'd get the narex of the two in that deal).

Two things can reasonably add cost that makes better performance:
1) the type of steel and quality of the hardening and tempering
2) the quality of the grind

1 allows you to have a chisel that sharpens easily and holds an edge well (especially in relative comparison to each other)
2 allows you to have a chisel with a profile that you like and if the grind is done well, prep is minimal and the chisel doesn't interfere with much of your work

Handles and other design elements can add some cost, but whether they add utility is subjective.

[Daniel Rode]

I don't have any "nice" chisels. I have some Marples blue chips, a Stanley Bailey set and a Narex mortise and a couple misc Irwin chisels.

The Marples are my hands down favorite. They sharpen easily and hold and edge well but it's mostly that I like the balance and handle shape better than the others. I dislike the large clunky Narex handles. I've read that some people have reshaped the Narex handles with good results. The Baileys are similar to the Narex handles but smaller and have indents top and bottom than make them more comfortable. The Irwin handles were designed by someone who never used a chisel but I was able to make a pair of skews of $12, so I can't complain too much. The steel doesn't hold and edge as well as the others but they are usable.

If I were going to buy a premium chisel, it would be more about the balance and feel than anything else. I've never used a Stanley 750 or the LN chisels but they look like they'd feel good in use. I like the looks of the AI mark 2 style. The thinner lands seem nice especially for dovetails. they "look" like they would be well balanced, not too long or short and the handle shape would feel good in the hand. But I'd have to use then to know for sure.

[Chris Hachet]

I don't have any "nice" chisels. I have some Marples blue chips, a Stanley Bailey set and a Narex mortise and a couple misc Irwin chisels.

The Marples are my hands down favorite. They sharpen easily and hold and edge well but it's mostly that I like the balance and handle shape better than the others. I dislike the large clunky Narex handles. I've read that some people have reshaped the Narex handles with good results. The Baileys are similar to the Narex handles but smaller and have indents top and bottom than make them more comfortable. The Irwin handles were designed by someone who never used a chisel but I was able to make a pair of skews of $12, so I can't complain too much. The steel doesn't hold and edge as well as the others but they are usable.

If I were going to buy a premium chisel, it would be more about the balance and feel than anything else. I've never used a Stanley 750 or the LN chisels but they look like they'd feel good in use. I like the looks of the AI mark 2 style. The thinner lands seem nice especially for dovetails. they "look" like they would be well balanced, not too long or short and the handle shape would feel good in the hand. But I'd have to use then to know for sure.

Marples chisels are fantastic-I have LN and Japanese chisels that I sue for really fine work, but the Marples are the workhorses of my shop. Being cheap enough to bang on without guilt makes them wonderful. they take a good edge, and keep it really well.

Chris

[Sean Hughto]

I'm not going to talk about these two particular brands, but I can offer things to consider. But let me first say that I agree that chisels are relatively simple and most modern steel is pretty decent, i.e., even an inexpensive chisel can get everything you need done well. Then again, a Yugo might get you to the supermarket, but it's nice to go in a Lexus.

- BALANCE:
The design of a chisel and it's handle change it's balance and feel in your hand. A better fit and balance may translate into better control and comfort which can translate into better results. So what effects balance: overall length, materials, design issues like tang versus socket. Compare for example the weight and feel of a Stanley Everlasting and a Stanley 750 and a Swan tang. Compare the difference between a 720 length chisel and a butt.

- FINISH:
The bevels on the long sides of the chisels can be well thought out and executed or more of an afterthought. Well designed and finished blades are nicer to use as they fell better in your hand and fit in tight places on your projects more deftly.

- HANDLE:
This is really personal preference, but it can make a lot of difference. Holding plastic is not as nice as holding oiled wood for me, for example. A well placed cove for your fingers, a nice taper or bulge, etc. can make quite a difference depending upon the application and how you like to hold the tool.

- STEEL:
So there is some bad cheap chromium steels I've seen on some cheap modern carpenters brands, but most modern steel seems quite good enough. Then again, I must say my experience is that there is such a thing as really sweet fine grained steels that take and keep a super keen edge. Most of those I have run into are vintage (Berg, Swan, Witherby, etc.). They are treat to use. LN's A2 is really strong, so it is great for jobs where I'm pounding the chisel into the wood, like in chopping dovetails. You don't want soft steel and your don't brittle. But other than that, most can be made to work. The otehr thing to consider as you get picky about steels is how different sorts behave in your chosen sharpening method. It's easy to sharpen vintage OI on some media, but harder to deal with A2, etc.

Hope some of this helps.

[lowell holmes]

My response is just pick up a LN or 750 and you will know the difference.

I have both and also blue handled Marples. The Marples is close and served me well.

Being something of a chisel snob, I pretty much use the LN and 750's.

I have a couple of the "Stanley Everlasting", but for some reason, I don't favor them.

Sometimes, an old chisel will not hold an edge like it should. I think that is a case where the proper alloy was not used in manufacturing.

For mortise chisels, I prefer Ray Iles. The Lee Valley Narex mortise chisels are good, but don't have the feel of the Iles. That can be changed somewhat by sanding and smoothing the Narex chisel handles and rubbing with Johnson floor wax. I have no problem with the metal in the Narex chisels.

The old Stanley 60 plastic handled chisels have good metal in them and make great "beater" chisels. The 1970's version absolutely hold a good edge.

I also have the Narex cranked neck paring chisels and I like them, especially after smoothing the handles. They are dangerously sharp.

[Mike Holbrook]

Frederick,
It might help to determine what you plan to use the chisels for. I have two main classifications of chisels: 1)chisels I can go ahead and whack, hard, with a steel hammer and 2) those that I plan to use either with hand pressure or maybe a special Wood Is Good or Thor Mallet. From there one can break the tougher chisels down to mortise vs other chisel shapes and if one chooses to go with Japanese chisels there are other classifications of chisels. The chisels used for fine, more hand oriented work can be broken down into many categories too.

Most of my hard use chisels have metal rings that protect the ends from splitting. The lighter use chisels usually do not have rings. Rings are especially handy if you want to use something like a Japanese metal chisel hammer to drive your chisels. Certainly one can drive chisels with many different types of mallets/hammers. Many use wood or special plastic hammer/mallet heads. I think there is a different feel of authority and precision one gets from striking a chisel with a steel hammer but for many others, not so much.

Most of the chisels made in the US or Europe, these days, are one type of metal. Many Japanese chisels are laminated. The Japanese laminated chisels are typically a very hard steel and a softer back up steel. The softer steel reinforces the hard steel that might crack or break easily without the help of the softer steel. The use of the softer steel also makes these chisels much easier to sharpen than say a solid HSS chisel. The laminated steel usually enables the maker to construct an edge that is harder and tougher at the same time without substantially increasing the difficulty of sharpening. Japanese chisels are often made by skilled craftsmen by hand instead of "manufactured".

Japanese chisels have quite a few other features that are a little complicated to get into. The backs of typical Japanese chisels are typically hollowed out instead of flat, the Japanese have a unique method of attaching chisels to handles, many Japanese chisels can be bought with handles made form several different woods, each with it's own unique features....The variety of features available in Japanese chisels is generally far greater than US/European chisels.

Consideration of what joints you will be wanting to make in the near future is a good place to start researching chisels from. The chisels you may want for timber framing or chopping mortises and tenons in a Roubo bench are worlds away from what you might want to trim very small hand made dovetails. You may also want to consider if and with what you might want to strike your chisels with. I hear a rumor that Rob Lee has contractors who "spank" anyone who strikes one of their very nice PM-V11 chisels with an all steel hammer. At the same time Rob may encourage you to strike one of his chisels with one of his metal hammer/mallets with a wood insert in the face.

[Derek Cohen]

Im going to buy a 1/8" chisel.

For what purpose, Fred? Morticing, paring, chopping dovetails ...?

Regards from Perth

Derek

[george wilson]

more likely,if an old chisel of a good brand doesn't hold an edge as well as the other same brand chisels,it was not hardened or tempered quite properly. Might have been made at the end of the day on Friday. Old QC was not what it is today.

QC depended upon the skill of the operator. Everyone can have a bad day,been sick,etc. Or even drunk back then.

[Sean Hughto]

To Derek's point, Fred, yes, there are specialty chisels for certain applications. Mortising, dovetailing, paring, skew, crank neck, etc. I took you to be asking about general purpose bench chisels.

[Frederick Skelly]

For what purpose, Fred? Morticing, paring, chopping dovetails ...?

Regards from Perth

Derek

Hi Derek. Just for general bench use on my small boxes; e.g., to cut a very narrow dado in which to fit an internal divider.

[paul cottingham]

I have a set of Narex chisels that I quite like. What I don't like is the fact that the steel is inconsistent. For example, the steel in the 1/4" chisel in my set is like cheese. The steel in the 1/2 is marginally better. However, the 3/4 and 1" chisels are great. So I am slowly replacing the smaller Narex chisels as I go along. I really like the new LV chisels with the carmelized (or whatever it is) handles. So I am replacing them with those. I like the steel in them.
i think the Ray Iles have the same problems. I have a buddy with a 1 1/2" Ray Iles chisel, and the steel in it is terrible. I have ground the damn thing at least three times, only to have the edge completely crumble the first time he uses it.
Good stell means less time honing and more time woodworking. Sharp tools work much better, with less effort. Easier on my hands.

[Frederick Skelly]

Thanks guys! Ive learned a lot from this discussion, just as Id hoped.

I appreciate you taking the time to teach me.

Fred

[Steve Voigt]

I have a buddy with a 1 1/2" Ray Iles chisel, and the steel in it is terrible. I have ground the damn thing at least three times, only to have the edge completely crumble the first time he uses it.

It's possible the steel is terrible, but I seriously doubt it. It sounds like your buddy's chisel just needs to be tempered some more. Are those chisels O1? If so, you can just take it to a straw color, or light brown, and it should be fine. Do either of you have an electric stove? If you do, you can temper it right on the range top, and you won't even have to take the handle off. I actually just did that tonight with an old English pigsticker. (a gas stove works too, but it's easier if you don't have to look at the flame).

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Derek. Just for general bench use on my small boxes; e.g., to cut a very narrow dado in which to fit an internal divider.

Hi Fred

OK, that is clearer now.

Actually you do not want a 1/8" chisel! You will be better off with a wide chisel, say 1"+. The issue here is not the chisel, but the best way to form a shallow dado.

What I would do is deeply score parallel lines, and then remove most of the waste using a chisel into and undercutting the lines.

This is a much larger version ..



A chisel will not leave a dado floor with the quality you may require. A router plane (with a 1/8") blade is ideal. Lee Valley sell small blades that will fit their Medium and Large router planes as well as Stanley router planes. Again, below is just an illustration ...



Regards from Perth

Derek