Member
I've been told that many of the components are manufactured by Quingdao. This is not to cast any inflection upon the quality of the product. It seems worldwide you get what you pay for.
Maybe this substantiates it a bit: http://woodfast.com.cn/ProductView2.asp The products do look much alike.
Scott in Montana
Member
Told by whom? A Felder rep? To me the Woodfast saws look more similar to Grizzly.
Member
Substantiates what, told by whom? if it were true that Felder sourced from China I am sure it would be common knowledge and spoken about widely. I would not find it surprising to find they sourced from Eastern Europe as a cost saver but I haven't seen any proof of that either.Originally Posted by Scott Stafford
Chris
Everything I like is either illegal, immoral or fattening
Member
Chris - you've weighed in on this issue before. It's been aired at length in forums before.
Why do you keep on taking up the cudgels on it? What's your stake/angle in all of it?
Last edited by ian maybury; 12-28-2014 at 6:40 AM.
Member
Until someone puts positive proof on the table and BTW feel free to do so, I will keep questioning the assertions of Asian manufacture. I have no agenda and could not care less where the Hammer or the Felder line is made but I find it a bit hard to swallow unsubstantiated allegations of this kind without any proof. Do you want to put the proof on the table? if someone does not do that then it is a false allegation. Be my guest and front the proof in writing with solid references to Asian manufacture, until then as far as I am concerned they are made in Europe. I own both MM and Hammer machines, both brands are excellent regardless of where they are made. Solid proof is not unsubstantiated stories of I know someone or my mate has an uncle who saw a machine in a Chinese factory.
If there is no substantial proof there is no point in continuing what is a pointless discussion.
Ian, you will notice I do not refute the made in China claim I only ask for hard proof.
Last edited by Chris Parks; 12-28-2014 at 10:06 AM.
Chris
Everything I like is either illegal, immoral or fattening
Member
My post is not intended to question the OP's decision. I think he has made a fine choice of manufacturer.
I am wondering if the problems reported for the Laguna 14/12 related to early production runs off an Asian CM. My experience with Asian manufacturing of US or Western World designs has been "good luck getting them to adhere to either your specs, your spec tolerances, your assembly instructions or written SOP's" and manufacturing notes. They will do as they please until that has been proven ineffective regardless of what they signed up for at the initiation of the contract including sourcing parts and sub assemblies from their buddies as opposed to the sources you thought you were insisting upon. The point is they force you to find where they are varying from the written specs and contract requirements, call them on it and insist that the resulting issues are costing you business. The usual first response is extreme agitation at your having called a spade a spade and insistence that the color white is white and the color black is black. Once you get past that you usually get what you need/want and thought you were signing up for at contract award.
I suspect that has been a good deal of give and take between Laguna and whoever is manufacturing over there for them. I do think I have noticed the numbers of complaints regarding the 14/12 have been fewer in the more recent production runs and even notice some changes in the saw (a set screw for the fence rail allowing to be adjusted to the table for example).
So has anybody had repeats of the oft mentioned, impossible to level table, impossible to adjust fence rail, misaligned doors, hard to assemble wheel assemblies etc etc in more recent deliveries?
Last edited by James Nugnes; 12-28-2014 at 2:59 PM.
Member
I have a manufacturing base in China and if we do not go over and check each shipment before it leaves we have QC problems which need rectification in Australia. We really need a full time supervisor there but the size of the operation makes that unrealistic.
Chris
Everything I like is either illegal, immoral or fattening
Member
Yes Peter and Chris, I was told that Hammer sources parts from China by a Felder representative. I don't find it any inflection upon the quality of the finished product.
Look inside any product you may own and you will find it to be a global device. Look inside your television and you'll most likely find components from a dozen nations. Take the back off of your dishwasher, same thing. Raise the hood (bonnet) on your automobile. Look at the zipper on your coat; the buttons on your suit.
I too have sourced Chinese products for my business without incident since the 80's.
May I reiterate that no matter where you buy in this world, you get exactly what you are willing to pay for.
Scott in Montana
Last edited by Scott Stafford; 12-28-2014 at 11:41 AM.
Member
I don't know if Hammer sources parts in China or not. But it would be surprising to me if there was no Chinese content in ANY given modern machine. Even a Bentley. But final assembly in Austria though is a big deal. Those guys have a long history of quality.
Resemblance in a photo between two manufacturers means nothing. Copying of physical appearance is rampant in China, to the point where there was a complete copy of Disneyland outside of Beijing and complete fake Apple stores full of fake Apple product in Chinese malls.
As far as bandsaw choices I would go for the N4400 if I couldn't afford an MM16. From what I understand the price difference is small from the N3800 and the N4400 is a definite upgrade.
Contributor
Chuck, where did you see that? I can't find the prices for the Hammer machines, nor an outlet at where they are sold.
[OP]
Member
You have to register to hammerusa.com and you will be able to see the price. You have to call them to order the bandsaw it is the only way to buy one.
See in the picture posted and you see the price.
hammer.jpg
Member
The particular issue is one that has led to lengthy discussions at least several times before on forums Chris - there's very little likely to be said here that hasn't been said several times already. It depends on what you classify as 'proof', but I'm not sure how a potential customer or owner (or amateur commenting on a forum like this) can realistically obtain 'proof' - or be required to - on a matter like this anyway.
It's not like our modern world or indeed industry is famous for the accuracy of its marketing claims, or that we're provided with rock solid data by makers by which to make our buying decisions. We end up forced to make most of them based on trust, hearsay and perception, and to proceed based on the most complex of trade offs and judgements. It's often a case of jumping into the dark...
I'm not a fan of the presumption that a one size fits all made anywhere in particular label implies quality or anything else - it's surely the worst sort of generalisation. I'm much more interested in the reality of the actual product supplied, and what it delivers at the price point relative to what is regarded as the norm. Which is why i'm consistently bemused at the reaction this topic seems to cause. Even more that it might be used as a part of a marketing pitch.
So +1 that 'made in anywhere' as a label is pretty much meaningless these days. The reality tends in the end to be down to bureaucratic and taxation driven hairsplitting and rules about poportion of local labour content - which in many cases need not amount to very much. Add in the possiblity of large variations in local content between machines within and across several ranges and broad generalisations become effectively meaningless.
Such a label may by some particular set of rules be technically true, but the reality is that in most manufactured products we're dealing with a potentially hugely complex continuum of labour and other input sources - with the result that a seemingly simple yes/no call is highly unlikely to come anywhere close to describing the reality.
If a manufacturer makes a marketing claim then it's in an environment like this then surely for them to substantiate it in the event that it's questioned? (sauce for the goose and all of that???)...
Last edited by ian maybury; 12-28-2014 at 2:47 PM.
Member
To the OP. Another here with no experience of the N4400 or the alternatives, but who has heard lots positive about the ability of the saw and the value it delivers at the price point - from a number of people with a history of generating reliable feedback.
It seems to be advisable not to overdo the blade width, and to ensure that it's thin enough that it won't suffer fatigue from bending over what are relatively small wheels. There's been discussion on the FOG (Felder Owners Group) group on Yahoo on the saw and on this topic...
Last edited by ian maybury; 12-28-2014 at 2:57 PM.
Contributor
Since the MM16 (S400P) was mentioned, I will say this and people can do with it what they want: In 10+ years of selling that machine, I have never had one customer tell me they regretted spending the money. Zero, not one. Just like I have never had one customer tell me that it was "over-priced" for they got. On the other hand, the number of guys I talk to who "settled" for something else, and I'm not talking about any particular brand, who told me a year or two later that they are are just "making do" with their machines, followed by a *sigh*. Well....
My wife and I recently bought a new Mini Cooper. I personally wanted to save some money and get the Base model but she was insistent on the souped-up "S" model, which was several thousand dollars more. Since it would be more her car than mine, I said OK and we got the "S". You know what? I'm glad I did because I drove the Base not too long ago and it was anemic. I wouldn't want one at any price. And I just love driving her car now. Point being, I didn't know what I didn't know before I actually owned and used one and if I hadn't ponied up on the front end, would have been one of those guys who "just settled" and just "getting by with my decision". The problem with all that, of course, is that once you spend that money, it's done and you are married to that machine for better or worse.
I'll never tell anyone what to buy but will gladly tell anyone how many stories of regret I have heard over my ten year career of selling bandsaws. You can never have to big or too heavy a bandsaw. Best of luck to the OP in his search.
Erik Loza
Minimax USA
Contributor
For what it is worth ( likely not much ) I've owned a bunch of bandsaws and there is no free lunch. There isn't that much profit margin in the machine so generally a $2000 saw is better built than a 1500, 2500 better than 2000, you get the picture. Everyone has to decide what makes economic sense but don't expect a saw of lesser price to outperform a more expensive one. Whether the saw has Asian or eastern Euro parts or assembled in Italy or Austria, ability follows price to a great degree as the market is very competitive. The only real price difference may come on a full Chinese saw but that is becoming less and less. Dave
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