Opinion of the Powermatic 3 or 5 hp shaper please

[Kevin Jenness]

I've sent many folks to Joe's course over the years, but if you can't make it, Roy Sutton's video series is pretty good (though shows outdated tooling) for lower budget operations that haven't invested $20000 in Aigner jigs. A local mentor can be great, but it would be a shame if they used antiquated tooling and techniques and got you off on the wrong foot.

I hadn't seen those Sutton videos, but a sneak peek suggests they are a good intro. Thanks for the suggestion. Definitely old school, attaching a breakthrough fence using a "project destroyer", aka Yankee Screwdriver. You are right to advocate caution when choosing a mentor.

[Jared Sankovich]

Hi Dan you are wise to be wary of any woodworking machine, but the shaper really is the Swiss army knife of the shop, and the time you spend getting comfortable with it, you will never regret.

I have been suggesting the spindle moulder handbook to folks for years, and it's a great way to go if you don't have a mentor. Also make sure you are using chip limiting, low kickback styles of tooling which have been required for commercial shops in Europe for years.

I've sent many folks to Joe's course over the years, but if you can't make it, Roy Sutton's video series is pretty good (though shows outdated tooling) for lower budget operations that haven't invested $20000 in Aigner jigs. A local mentor can be great, but it would be a shame if they used antiquated tooling and techniques and got you off on the wrong foot.

Roy's spindle moulder video is great, I don't believe there is a more comprehensive video out there.

I've said this before but this forum has the most shaper specific dialog I've found and I've searched everywhere. Owwm is very close but very different content wise. Beyond that one needs to be searching "spindle moulder, "toupie" or "tischfrase" in euro based forums to find good information. I will say there is enough information available online to become proficient with various techniques and methods (speaking from first hand experience) but it takes a lot of persistentce. Info is limited to bits here and there. You may need to read what someone wrote months (or years) later to fully comprehend what was meant.

[Dan Chouinard]

Hi Dan you are wise to be wary of any woodworking machine, but the shaper really is the Swiss army knife of the shop, and the time you spend getting comfortable with it, you will never regret.

I have been suggesting the spindle moulder handbook to folks for years, and it's a great way to go if you don't have a mentor. Also make sure you are using chip limiting, low kickback styles of tooling which have been required for commercial shops in Europe for years.

I've sent many folks to Joe's course over the years, but if you can't make it, Roy Sutton's video series is pretty good (though shows outdated tooling) for lower budget operations that haven't invested $20000 in Aigner jigs. A local mentor can be great, but it would be a shame if they used antiquated tooling and techniques and got you off on the wrong foot.

Low kickback is music to my ears. Is Rangate tooling something I should investigate? Want to start with Tongue and groove for shaker doors and wall boards that Michaels clients seem to favor over plaster.

Thanks for the feedback!

[Dan Chouinard]

Forgot to mention that I have had Spindle Moulder Handbook for many years just waiting patiently in a drawer. Unfortunately diagrams make my head explode!

[Kevin Jenness]

I will say there is enough information available online to become proficient with various techniques and methods (speaking from first hand experience) but it takes a lot of persistentce. Info is limited to bits here and there. You may need to read what someone wrote months (or years) later to fully comprehend what was meant.

True, but it can be hard to sort out the wheat from the chaff. There's more than enough wrong info online to get into trouble with.

One good point made repeatedly by Roy Sutton is the "cockpit check", checking for free cutter rotation, fence secure, spindle height locked and guards in place. I would add checking spindle rotation direction, spindle speed, hold-downs and fingerboards or powerfeed secure, knives secure in the head, spindle nut tight and no-one in the kickback zone.

At one point a shop I worked in had a rule that shaper setups had to be checked by a second person. This was after the shop owner failed to lock down the knives in a corrugated head and sent one through the wall 30 ft away. There are plenty of potential pitfalls and they can affect more than just the machine operator. Shapers don't have to be dangerous but they do have a lot more variables to keep track of than other common machines.

[Warren Lake]

lots of unsafe on the net on most machines, people who dont know they dont know, just time till they find out but worse is others that will follow them.

[brent stanley]

Roy's spindle moulder video is great, I don't believe there is a more comprehensive video out there.

I've said this before but this forum has the most shaper specific dialog I've found and I've searched everywhere. Owwm is very close but very different content wise. Beyond that one needs to be searching "spindle moulder, "toupie" or "tischfrase" in euro based forums to find good information. I will say there is enough information available online to become proficient with various techniques and methods (speaking from first hand experience) but it takes a lot of persistentce. Info is limited to bits here and there. You may need to read what someone wrote months (or years) later to fully comprehend what was meant.

I agree, all the info is out there but like you say it's pretty inefficient to wander all of the WWW to get it, all the while separating the wheat from the chaff. This forum is great and I'd like to see the S.M. Handbook updated. I think it's a few years old now and some standards have changed a bit I think. I was lucky enough to spend some time with a former instructor in the UK and have a friend who taught at a college who continues to be a great resource for solutions more cost effective than "buy this Aigner jig"!

[Jared Sankovich]

True, but it can be hard to sort out the wheat from the chaff. There's more than enough wrong info online to get into trouble with.

.

That is actually easier than it seems. It's pretty evident after a couple hours/days of reading (a single forum) who knows what they are talking about. As an example if you search for shaper threads in this forum (and you read all of them) you start to see who elicits additional responses (positive and negative) It doesn't take long to understand who is speaking from experience. Combine all those disperat bits and you have a general idea who is going to get your fingers mangled, and who isn't.

That said having a mentor or in person instruction would be 1000x (maybe 10,000x) times better/easier.

[Phillip Mitchell]

Hey there Dan, Just adding to the chorus here...I didn’t own a shaper until a few years ago and went through all the online discourses in various places myself to get familiar with shaper stuff. I’m still learning (hopefully we all are...) but my findings have been similar to Jared (and he himself has guided me often with specific questions / operations - thanks Jared)

There are many members here that have loads of shaper experience and typically chime in when the topic comes up. I would love to be able to afford to spend a week at one of Joe’s Alpine Workshops, if for no other reason than to get some quality seat time on such fine machinery. Still saving pennies for that experience.

Head-spinning diagrams aside, the Spindle Moulder Handbook has some great text and photos as well that are worth a million words with this type of stuff. Helped me a lot at the beginning and still now as well.

Aside from the archives of this site (search via Google) there is a good bit of info on the WoodWeb Knowledge archives and forums, though it can be harder to discern who is actually giving out the details and subjects vary. The Canadian Woodworking forum has had some good shaper discussions and insights as well.

T&G and/or shiplap is a good place to start with a shaper operation. Shiplap can be done with a simple rabbeting block and having a power feeder setup for the operation is a good thing too.

T&G would get into more a specific head or knives to do in single passes but certainly better and faster with a shaper and feeder than a router table.

I have not read through this whole thread. Do you have a power feeder and any tooling yet for your machine? What size is your spindle? A lot of it comes down to what you’re actually wanting to produce or do with the machine and then the discussion evolves from there.

Brent Stanley is a great and helpful resource for shaper stuff in general and specifically Whitehill from the UK and has always been immensely helpful with tooling (and other) questions.

So you guys still have the old SCM S50 planer kicking around? I still really enjoy mine and love the machine for what it is.

[Kevin Jenness]

That is actually easier than it seems. It's pretty evident after a couple hours/days of reading (a single forum) who knows what they are talking about. As an example if you search for shaper threads in this forum (and you read all of them) you start to see who elicits additional responses (positive and negative) It doesn't take long to understand who is speaking from experience. Combine all those disperat bits and you have a general idea who is going to get your fingers mangled, and who isn't.

That said having a mentor or in person instruction would be 1000x (maybe 10,000x) times better/easier.

I guess I agree with you in the case of an experienced woodworker, which Dan is. I use the same method to decide whose opinion is worth listening to. Someone who has been doing woodworking for a while, especially in the trade, should know what they don't know. A relative novice is going to have a harder time deciding which authoritative sounding voice is valid, especially looking at Youtube videos. There are a lot of confident wingnuts out there.

[Dan Chouinard]

Hi Philip, thank you for your thoughts. Power feeder is on the way as a year end purchase, as is a Lamello Zeta P2 (looking forward to playing with that). No shaper tooling yet but hope to figure that out soon. The shaper workshop out in Colorado sounds expensive but my feeling is that it would be money very well spent.

[Dan Chouinard]

Good Morning,
I have been out of the shop since the first of May. My first task is to finally get the shaper up and running to make a couple of simple entry doors. We need tooling. I have made a fair bit of true divided lite glass cabinet doors and a few simple entry doors using Freud Window sash stile and rail cutters (99-050 & 99-051) on my router table. For larger shaper cutters I believe 1 1/4 " spindle is the standard recommendation. Does this hold true for smaller profiles such as sash cutters or should I be looking at 3/4" cutters for this project?
Thanks

[Kevin Jenness]

Unless you need a small diameter cutter for very tight curves I would suggest sticking with 1 1/4" bore as a rule. It will save the bother of swapping out spindles. For square edge doors with inserted tenons or dowels an adjustable groover and a matched pair of insert rabbeting heads for stub tenons are a good investment. For cope and stick work look at the Whitehill catalog. Brent Stanley pointed out the versatility of their Euro block cutterheads in a fairly recent thread.

[Dan Chouinard]

I started getting serious yesterday about the possibility of going out to Colorado for the Alpine advanced joinery workshop. All the pieces fell together rather quickly and by the end of the day all arrangements were finalized. I will be attending this September 20-23. Long overdue and really looking forward to the experience and education.
Thanks to all who have offered advice and the heads up on Alpine.

[Kevin Jenness]

Great idea. Joe is very knowledgeable and up to date on machinery and tooling. I'm sure it will be worthwhile, plus it's in a beautiful area.