Saw build questions

[Leigh Betsch]

I started to make a couple of back saws this week. This is my first attempt at building a saw. Last year I bought a couple of sharpened saw plates from Ron Bontz, and now I'm getting around to making the saws. So I have a couple of questions for you experts.
I don't know much about hang angle so I plucked a nice pattern off the net with something like a 15 degree hang angle if I measure correctly. I have a rip and a crosscut saw plate, so I figure I'll use the same handle for both saws. Is that a mistake?
I have a couple of chunks of apple from a member here but I'm a bit worried that I'll screw something up so I started on a walnut handle thinking if I get things figured out I can replace the walnut with apple latter. Is walnut the wrong wood?
I found some brass in my metal storage, so I ordered a slitting saw and plan to machine the brass back and slit the slot on my horizontal mill. But I also ordered some .093 brass plate for making a folded back in case I want to give that option a whirl. The saw plates are 5" x 18" x .025" thick. I'm undecided on the final saw size, I'm leaning toward 14" crosscut saw and a 16" tenon saw, both with 4" under the back. Any thoughts on if I should go with 1/2 back or full length backs? I'm leaning toward full length. Any thoughts on the sizes that I'm considering?

[Jim Matthews]

Walnut feels nice, but it's prone to splintering or dents - if dropped.
I'm hard on tools, and prefer a harder species for handles.

I'm not sure, but I think Ron has made some handles from Hickory.
Mesquite is nice, too. What species are locally available?

The only thing I would suggest, regarding design is to have a look
at handles with more "meat" in the upper and lower loop above
and below the hand grip.

That's where all my 'rehab' saws failed.

Ron made a Reagan variant that fills most of these design requirements.

FWIW - My go-to crosscut saw is a circa 1970's Orsa with a plywood handle.

http://www.wkfinetools.com/contrib/C.../reagan-01.asp

It's very comfortable, and has withstood my clumsy misadventures.

[Kees Heiden]

Wallnut is fine. I've dropped one of my wallnut handled saws a pretty long way and I can't see any damage.

If I where you, I would start with a small saw, a dovetail saw or a carcass one. Saw building isn't easy, and better get some practice on a smaller object. If you can make folded backs, then I'd say go for it! They are the traditional choice and much better in my not so honest opinion. You can read a bunch of posts on my blog about folding backs in the autumn of 2013. http://seekelot.blogspot.nl

And I would certainly choose a full length back. On large tenon saws i would try to lighten the back a bit. A full length 16" long 1" wide brass back is heavy!

[george wilson]

Don't forget that European walnut is not the same as American. I love working European walnut. It cuts very cleanly with a knife. I can't describe it. American is more splintery,and it gets your hands purple sometimes.

[Kees Heiden]

I belive my sawhandle was made from American black Wallnut. It is indeed quite different from the wallnut from Belgium that I have used a lot.

[Jim Koepke]

I don't know much about hang angle so I plucked a nice pattern off the net with something like a 15 degree hang angle if I measure correctly. I have a rip and a crosscut saw plate, so I figure I'll use the same handle for both saws. Is that a mistake?

Leigh,

You might like to give a try to my solution on figuring the "hang angle" for a saw and handle. To start a prototype handle was made from a piece of scrap pine. Pine is fast and fairly easy to work. It was easy to install a small strip of wood on a pivot into this to simulate sawing. That is how my hang angle was figured.

I also made notes on how the handle felt in my hand. The radiuses and horns were adjusted to fit my hand.

Using the same handle for both saws isn't a problem if the wood used is easy to distinguish between the two. When you have two identical saws in a rack, it could be difficult telling one from the other without some differences between the two.

Here is a post of mine on making a handle for a back saw:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthre...Back-Saw-Build

Hope it is of some help.

jtk

[Steve Voigt]

I found some brass in my metal storage, so I ordered a slitting saw and plan to machine the brass back and slit the slot on my horizontal mill. But I also ordered some .093 brass plate for making a folded back in case I want to give that option a whirl. The saw plates are 5" x 18" x .025" thick. I'm undecided on the final saw size, I'm leaning toward 14" crosscut saw and a 16" tenon saw, both with 4" under the back. Any thoughts on if I should go with 1/2 back or full length backs? I'm leaning toward full length. Any thoughts on the sizes that I'm considering?

If you want to make backs for the challenge, that's cool. But you might consider the folded backs from TGIAG. They'll cost less than your slitting saw, and they look great.
By the way, I don't know if you've used a slitting saw on a mill, but it's slow, vexing work. Vibration and chatter are constants. I would usually mill a groove in a block of aluminum to hold the work. For a really deep slot, you may need to shim the slot (in your workpiece, not the fixture) to avoid vibration. And be extremely careful about climb cutting; I would avoid it altogether.

[Mike Allen1010]

. So I have a couple of questions for you experts.
I don't know much about hang angle so I plucked a nice pattern off the net with something like a 15 degree hang angle if I measure correctly. I have a rip and a crosscut saw plate, so I figure I'll use the same handle for both saws. Is that a mistake?
I have a couple of chunks of apple from a member here but I'm a bit worried that I'll screw something up so I started on a walnut handle thinking if I get things figured out I can replace the walnut with apple latter. Is walnut the wrong wood?
I found some brass in my metal storage, so I ordered a slitting saw and plan to machine the brass back and slit the slot on my horizontal mill. But I also ordered some .093 brass plate for making a folded back in case I want to give that option a whirl. The saw plates are 5" x 18" x .025" thick. I'm undecided on the final saw size, I'm leaning toward 14" crosscut saw and a 16" tenon saw, both with 4" under the back. Any thoughts on if I should go with 1/2 back or full length backs? I'm leaning toward full length. Any thoughts on the sizes that I'm considering?

Lee,

Based on the expert in beautiful work you've done with your shop built planes, I'm sure you'll be able to build some fine saws that you will enjoy using for years to come. .025" saw plate is a great place to start as it is a lot less finicky than some of the thinner saw plates and much better chance you'll end up with a nice straight plate.

With regard to hang angle, IMHO there is no need to use a different hang angle for a rip saw versus a crosscut saw. As you mentioned, there are lots of sites where you can get templates of some of the classic saw Totes that have been used for a long time very successfully by lots of woodworkers. I'm sure the hang angle on any these will be just fine. these saws are small enough that you can adjust your mechanics for even the most extreme ranges of hang angle's.

I've made a number of saw totes out of American black walnut and Claro walnut. Although are not as durable as some harder woods, Walnut is certainly much easier to shape with hand tools than some of the harder exotic woods.
DSC_0211.jpg


One of the saw totes I made recently was Mexican Kingwood. It looks beautiful and is bulletproof, but I won’t use it again as it was waaaaay too much work to shape.
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One thing I like to do is use darker woods for the totes on crosscut saws and lighter woods for rip saws.This makes it easier to grab the saw you want when you have a couple sitting on the bench. I have had good luck with Maple.
DSC_0213.jpgDSC_0160.jpg

Plate dimensions are largely a matter of personal preference. I started with traditional sized tenon /backsaw plates but have come to prefer longer plates. For me I get faster and consistently more accurate results with longer saw plates/longer strokes. IMHO wider plates, like your 5" are easier to keep perpendicular to the work surface than narrower plates.

Kees makes a good point about the weight of full-length brass backs. At 16 “ long I don’t think a full-length back will be a problem. The saw will still be light enough that you can easily hover the teeth right over the layout line so you get started where you want.

Below are some pictures of a couple saws I made that don’t have full-length brass backs. I really like these. The lighter weight makes them really maneuverable and easy to handle. I wouldn’t consider these in any saw plate thinner than .025”s – but that’s just me – I’m sure some of the experts here much more knowledgeable than me might have other opinions.

DSC_0209.jpg

Lee, I really look forward to seeing some pictures of your progress.

Best regards, Mike

[Leigh Betsch]

Thanks for the replies. I have started on a walnut tote. I had a piece of nice Bastogne walnut, from America not Europe. I'm thinking that if I get the shaping right it will look great and if its to soft or if I don't get the shape right, well it is too small of a piece to do much else with anyway. Call it a prototype.
I glued a paper pattern to a piece of 1/2" polycarbonate, drilled,band-sawed, and shaped it as my template. I then transferred the holes to my walnut blank, used the holes to pin the template to the blank and patterned routed the walnut. (Sorry I'm not a purest Neanderthal). I'm now in the process of shaping the tote with rasps, files, knifes, chisels, saws, fingernails and teeth. I don't have any experience in carving, the lambs tongue is a challenge for me.

I did checkout buying the backs from a couple of places including TGIAG, and you're right it would have been cheaper and most likely quicker but in the end I know I can do all the metal work myself and I like to build things. Thanks for the idea to fixture the back, and shim the slot, in the mill. I've been kicking around my options here for a few days. My brass is in 1x3x20" bar stock right now. I could slot it then cut it off from the bar stock, which would make holding it in the mill for slotting easy, but I worry about the back bowing when I cut it free from the bar stock. But then there is the problem of holding the long skinny part for milling if I cut the bar stock first.

Maybe I'll leave the saw plates the full 5x18" and see how I like them. I'm really undecided. If I cut them down I can't go back, but if they are heavy and awkward, that's not much good either.

Enough of my rambling, I'll post a few pics along the way....

[Kees Heiden]

My tenon saw is 18" long, but it has a steel back, tapering from something like 3/4" to 1/2". It is made from steel plate only 2mm thick. This is all more in line with the 18th century saws then the 19th century, when they liked brass, almost a full 1" wide and 3 mm thick plate. I have also made a 16" tenon saw with such a brass spine. Personally I like my new one with steel back a lot more because of the reduced weight.

[Leigh Betsch]

Got these two finished up a couple of days ago. They are my first attempt at saw making. They aren't perfect but they are users not wall art. The prototype walnut tote came out ok so I'll keep it as it is. The second one is the apple tote, carved a bit nicer held the detail better. They ended up 17" x5". My first experience carving a lambs tongue.

[Ron Bontz]

Well Leigh, Some how I feel right at home looking at these. Nice job.
" I ain't afraid of no shaped plates"

[Leigh Betsch]

Yeah I stole your design. It's only fitting since I got the saw plate stock from you, and you sharpened them for me. No worries though I don't plan to get into completion with you, I'm a hack. They do cut nice.