North American vs Euro TS Fences and Safety

[Joe Calhoon]

Concerning the proper use of the sliding two position Euro fence.
I spent a few days at the Martin factory in Germany last year training on the safety, proper use, adjustments and maintenance of the machines.

When using this type fence in a conventional way (not with the sliding table) the fence should start at blade center for narrow rips. As boards get wider and the fence moves farther away from the blade the end of the fence should be about 30 degrees from center of blade. The picture shows a 30-degree angle being used just to give the idea. In practice just eyeball it. For solid wood the advantage of using the fence this way is less chance of kickback and easier on the blade.

For man-made sheet goods the fence should be used extended far past the blade. (Again, not with the sliding table)

The use of the fence with the sliding table opens up many more possibilities with the fence positioned behind the blade for many cuts. We have our slider outfitted with Airtight clamps and use the Fritz & Franz jigs for many things sometimes in combination with the Airtight clamps.

At the Martin workshop the German Meisters say with proper use the fingers should never be near the blade and cannot understand why we would want to depend on technology like Sawstop for safety. Most of the safety techniques require a sliding table saw though. Most shops in Europe do not use conventional table saws.

The old UK method with the short fence and large blade looks pretty dangerous to me. We are going to tour some UK shops this year and will be curious if this is still in practice.
Joe

photo 1.jpgphoto 2.jpgphoto 3.jpgSaw cut.jpgSlider trimming door.jpg

[ian maybury]

I've often figured that if we spoke German that there's all sorts available out there by way of correct use manuals for sliders. There's as before i think a gap in the English speaking markets for something like this - it'd probably just take a translation.

One nice option with the slider which is presumably in the possibilities you refer to Joe is the ability to use a retracted fence as a stop to set cross cuts which are made with the work clamped to the slider. (not safe if the fence extends past the start of the blade) This actually is one of the major reasons i made the DIY short/extending fence to fit on the full length Incra fitted to my K3, with that set up the Incra adds repeatable very fine positioning as would say a readout equipped stop....

[Peter Aeschliman]

Concerning the proper use of the sliding two position Euro fence.
I spent a few days at the Martin factory in Germany last year training on the safety, proper use, adjustments and maintenance of the machines.

When using this type fence in a conventional way (not with the sliding table) the fence should start at blade center for narrow rips. As boards get wider and the fence moves farther away from the blade the end of the fence should be about 30 degrees from center of blade. The picture shows a 30-degree angle being used just to give the idea. In practice just eyeball it. For solid wood the advantage of using the fence this way is less chance of kickback and easier on the blade.

For man-made sheet goods the fence should be used extended far past the blade. (Again, not with the sliding table)

The use of the fence with the sliding table opens up many more possibilities with the fence positioned behind the blade for many cuts. We have our slider outfitted with Airtight clamps and use the Fritz & Franz jigs for many things sometimes in combination with the Airtight clamps.

At the Martin workshop the German Meisters say with proper use the fingers should never be near the blade and cannot understand why we would want to depend on technology like Sawstop for safety. Most of the safety techniques require a sliding table saw though. Most shops in Europe do not use conventional table saws.

The old UK method with the short fence and large blade looks pretty dangerous to me. We are going to tour some UK shops this year and will be curious if this is still in practice.
Joe

photo 1.jpgphoto 2.jpgphoto 3.jpgSaw cut.jpgSlider trimming door.jpg

Very interesting. So Martin recommends extending the fence past the front of the blade... the plot thickens.

I would love to get a full format style slider... but even the Hammer K3 Winner is $5,700. The K4 Perform is nearly $10k. A little rich for my blood...

I think what I'll do is make an accessory for my SS biesemeyer clone fence and try it out. I like the verysupercooltools fence, but it looks like its positioning is intended to be somewhat permanent (you need an alan wrench to adjust it). I'd like something a bit more precise and permanent than a plywood carriage for my fence.

[jack forsberg]

Concerning the proper use of the sliding two position Euro fence.
I spent a few days at the Martin factory in Germany last year training on the safety, proper use, adjustments and maintenance of the machines.

When using this type fence in a conventional way (not with the sliding table) the fence should start at blade center for narrow rips. As boards get wider and the fence moves farther away from the blade the end of the fence should be about 30 degrees from center of blade. The picture shows a 30-degree angle being used just to give the idea. In practice just eyeball it. For solid wood the advantage of using the fence this way is less chance of kickback and easier on the blade.

For man-made sheet goods the fence should be used extended far past the blade. (Again, not with the sliding table)

The use of the fence with the sliding table opens up many more possibilities with the fence positioned behind the blade for many cuts. We have our slider outfitted with Airtight clamps and use the Fritz & Franz jigs for many things sometimes in combination with the Airtight clamps.

At the Martin workshop the German Meisters say with proper use the fingers should never be near the blade and cannot understand why we would want to depend on technology like Sawstop for safety. Most of the safety techniques require a sliding table saw though. Most shops in Europe do not use conventional table saws.

The old UK method with the short fence and large blade looks pretty dangerous to me. We are going to tour some UK shops this year and will be curious if this is still in practice.
Joe

photo 1.jpgphoto 2.jpgphoto 3.jpgSaw cut.jpgSlider trimming door.jpg

I thought it was 4 positions for the sliding plate? most often not mentioned is the slid back low fence for narrow beveled rips with the blade tipping in to the fence plate. the low fence does not foul the crown guard and lets the use of a push stick and does not trap the beveled cut between the fence . That Robinson saw is the old rip saw with fixed arbor the rise and fall is the table Joe and it don't look that scary to me. the guy even lets go of the wood to get the sticks and his hands are never near that blade. that is a current training video for apprentices in the UK and there is still a fair amount of these saws in use there. there are also full slider and there trained on these saws too.

the rip saw short fence is to handle reaction timber like this 50" Sagar rip saw with rope feed



All the rips saws i have seen with power feed have the short fence like the SLRs or like this Wadkin rip saw in this UK furniture shop.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IWeFhpJ1rJI

[Larry Edgerton]

I have both Biesmeyers and a Unifence but there is a Biesmeyer on the saw I rip with most so I made a magnetic half fence to slip over the Biesmeyer for ripping solid wood. I like to have both.

[Peter Aeschliman]

the rip saw short fence is to handle reaction timber like this 50" Sagar rip saw with rope feed

YouTube Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9HMLx6Iiv8

Woa. That video nearly gave me a panic attack. I thought I was going to see an amputation at any second!

[Joe Calhoon]

I thought it was 4 positions for the sliding plate? most often not mentioned is the slid back low fence for narrow beveled rips with the blade tipping in to the fence plate. the low fence does not foul the crown guard and lets the use of a push stick and does not trap the beveled cut between the fence . That Robinson saw is the old rip saw with fixed arbor the rise and fall is the table Joe and it don't look that scary to me. the guy even lets go of the wood to get the sticks and his hands are never near that blade. that is a current training video for apprentices in the UK and there is still a fair amount of these saws in use there. there are also full slider and there trained on these saws too.

Hi Jack,
4 positions? The good Euro fences are adjustable to any position fore and aft.
Here is how the smart money does those bevel cuts. Overhead guard raised for the photo.
Fritz and Franz 1.jpgFritz and Franz 2.jpg

I usually prefer to do these narrow bevels on the shaper or jointer. Peter G can just tilt his saw either direction.

If you are referring to the Warwick College videos? IMHO those are very outdated.

the rip saw short fence is to handle reaction timber like this 50" Sagar rip saw with rope feed

Jack, why do all your saw videos show getting a lot of sawdust in the face?



All the rips saws i have seen with power feed have the short fence like the SLRs or like this Wadkin rip saw in this UK furniture shop.

This is true and our small SLR is like that. You have to remember these are track feed and that works well in that combination.
We ran a power feed table saw for years. You have to be careful with the short fence using a power feed depending on how many wheels you remove. As the feeder is putting pressure on the fence. We destroyed a Unifence with a power feed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IWeFhpJ1rJI

I like this one. The circular resawed look is very popular here for rustic work vs the bandsawed. I would like to have the Pickles parked outside my shop. It would be a little unhandy for general straight line work though.

Joe

[Joe Calhoon]

Very interesting. So Martin recommends extending the fence past the front of the blade... the plot thickens.

Hi Peter,
I would not get too hung up about it. These are general recommendations and I have found not all the German woodworkers use the fence the same way.
I ripped with a normal US fence for many years just because I did not know any other way. Main thing when using a table saw is focus, not get in a hurry and develop consistent good habits.

Joe

[jack forsberg]

I like this one. The circular resawed look is very popular here for rustic work vs the bandsawed. I would like to have the Pickles parked outside my shop. It would be a little unhandy for general straight line work though.

Joe

Ya that's how the English do it to with the right tilt and good to see the Germans have caught on. you can see it here at HSE safe work practice

http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/wis16.pdf

I thought it was good them to teach old school saws as well as modern. Never know what you will run into out there Joe. No all shops have Martins thats were that short fence come from so it goes with out saying there for big blade saws that through a bit of wood at ya. The High(1) Low(2)for(3) and aft(4) fence is an evolution of these old sliding rip plate fences that came with the development of the panel saws for sheet stock.

[Roy Turbett]

Pete-

I just traded my Unisaw with a Unifence for a Sawstop ICS with a Biesmeyer style 42" fence and like everything about the Sawstop better except for the fence. I used to move the Unifence about even with arbor when cutting dimensional lumber and left it long when cutting sheet goods. This is because the kerf on dimensional lumber tends to move. It can either open, close or remain the same. The length of the fence doesn't affect anything if the kerf remains the same or closes, (You can still get a kickback, especially if you aren't using a riving knife or splitter, but it the length of the fence didn't cause it.) However, if the kerf should open, the length of the fence comes into play because the leading edge of the board will remain against the fence but the middle of the board will spring back against the blade. This can cause the wood to burn or kickback, especially if you're not using a splitter. I tried moving the Unifence so it was just past the point where the cut was complete but found that I prefered it back just a little further so the end was even with the arbor.

As for my Sawstop, I made a short auxillary fence that I clamp to the factory fence and use it for cutting dimensional lumber. I use the full length fence for cutting sheet goods.

[Joe Calhoon]

Ya that's how the English do it to with the right tilt and good to see the Germans have caught on. you can see it here at HSE safe work practice

http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/wis16.pdf

I thought it was good them to teach old school saws as well as modern. Never know what you will run into out there Joe. No all shops have Martins thats were that short fence come from so it goes with out saying there for big blade saws that through a bit of wood at ya. The High(1) Low(2)for(3) and aft(4) fence is an evolution of these old sliding rip plate fences that came with the development of the panel saws for sheet stock.

Thats a good publication Jack. I see they show the fence more forward than the old UK rip saws.
Fritz & Franz and the Airtight clamps add another level of safety to this because they eliminate the need for push sticks in most cases. You don't need a Martin for this. Many ranges of price for Continental made saws with this type sliding fence both new and used.
Joe

[Roy Turbett]

My sawstop PCS has a riving knife, etc. But I'm considering swapping the fence out for a verysupercooltools fence and cutting the aluminum extrusion down so that it is no longer than the front gullet of my 10" blade's when at a reasonably low height setting... that is if it is safer and more accurate. But I'm stuck on this point...

Pete -

I just looked at the verysupertools website video and don't see why you can't make an short auxiliary fence that attaches to the extruded aluminum like the tall fence accessory. That way you could keep the longer fence for sheet goods.

[jack forsberg]

Thats a good publication Jack. I see they show the fence more forward than the old UK rip saws.
Fritz & Franz and the Airtight clamps add another level of safety to this because they eliminate the need for push sticks in most cases. You don't need a Martin for this. Many ranges of price for Continental made saws with this type sliding fence both new and used.
Joe

Dave added an air clamp to his old slider. I Opted to make mine for the PK old school and manual. Very handy for odd short work. Mine can bolt to any of the the threaded hold. I do agree there a vast improvement to holding the work safe.

[David Kumm]

Jack's is way cooler, but here is mine on the whitney.DSCN2371.jpg I now have a base made that slides and locks with only a quarter turn in the T slot. Both Jack and Joe are a million times more knowledgeable than I am but I am protective of my thumbs as they are what separate me from most mammals. Dave DSCN2730.jpg

[Joe Calhoon]

That is a beautiful fence and clamp Jack!

Dave, Do you have Airtight on your SCM slider? It changed the way we worked the sliding saw. Mac is working on a sliding workbench track that can hold the clamps.
Joe