Dust is dangerous

[Phil Thien]

Chris,
I think, as always, with these threads if anyone injects any measure of reason they are immediately (and unfairly) swung into the column of "sawdust schmawdust, heck, toss your small children in the dust bin and let the play in it like a sandbox". The simple fact of the matter is those statements are never made. No one in this thread, nor any other that I have read (there are plenty here and elsewhere), has ever stated that dust control and collection is a waste of time. Its consistently stated that its just a smart thing to do, and makes shop time more pleasant to boot.

That said if the issue was so imminently detrimental to health the PR campaign in the commercial woodworking industry would be equaled only by that of anti-tobacco. Its just not there. Its not to say they are running around willy nillie stirring up sawdust and breathing it for fun just for the sake of being careless. Its about measured reason.

I have no doubt the data is out there somewhere (likely in the insurance industry) but the numbers may likely be so small its not tracked or not attributed to hobby, or low level, woodworking. Sandpaper and power sanders have been around for long enough that everyone from shop teachers to those in the woodworking industry would be sick to a level of public outcry but its not the case. Some people get sick for sure. Bakers lung is a perfect example. Well known, well documented, and real. But do you see Martha Stewart wearing a respirator when she bakes? Julia Child? How bout Cake Boss? They are baking daily? I have a local commercial bakery near me with perhaps a half dozen employees. I have not seen a trend air shield in there or even a dust mask.

I was in the pottery world for a several years. We were very very cautions when mixing clay and glazes. Concerns of silicosis abounds in that world. Yet you can look to the elders of the pottery world, people in their 70's, 80's, and beyond, who were potters their entire lives and died of old age. We had never heard of a documented case of silicosis in a potter who worked in his or her private studio full time for a lifetime (which almost none of us did). The cases you did hear about were in people who mined the raw materials, worked in huge factory environments long before the effects were known. Did that mean we didnt wear a respirator? Of course not. Oddly in that world the worst thing that would get you would be something called "Polymer Flu". Buying dry ingredients in less that full bag quantities were weighed out into plastic bags by our suppliers. If you didnt wear a respirator, opening and closing those bags all day would give you a 24 hour flu that would be miserable. It had nothing to do with the material in the bags but the plastic bags themselves.

Again, I have not read anyone in any of these threads state that protecting yourself from dust isnt a good idea but getting extremely carried away with it when the shops and tools of years past simply pale in comparison to most of our shops and tools today can be a bit over the top but to each his/her own. My dad was a hobby cabinetmaker. There was no such thing as dust collection. It didnt exist. His woodworking consisted of dust everywhere, a 1/3 sheet sander (the 25lb chrome plated job with the frayed cord that you had to stay away from so you didnt get zapped) and some ash trays around the shop for the cig's. Grandfather the same. And they were dealing with nastier solvents, nastier paints, adhesives, and so on. All my ply in my shop is low/no VOC, formaldehyde free, and so on. My finishes are safer than any time in history. My shop is an operating room compared to 40-50 years ago and those old timers are stopping in my shop to chew the fat!!

I am a 100% proponent of dust collection and would personally never work in a shop without it. My air cleaner is running whenever I am working. That said, Im in the shop almost full time and I can pretty much guarantee something else is going to get me long before the sawdust does.

I agree e/ Mark.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

You can develop a sensitivity (allergy) if you work with something long enough.

You mean like a spouse?

[Mike Ontko]

I ended up getting into a discussion over on YouTube on a video of Adam Savage, of Mythbusters fame, doing woodworking. He was grinding down LDF, which he said had no formaldehyde, and making tons and tons of sawdust with no dust collection and no mask. I pointed out that it was dangerous to do, the dust could get into his lungs and cause breathing problems, not only now, but in the future. I was amazed at how many people couldn't get it through their heads that dust, in and of itself, is dangerous to breathe in, they kept arguing that it wasn't toxic, therefore it was fine.

Eventually, I just gave up. What do you say to such people who haven't got a clue?

I'd ask them how much they're spending for a pack of cigarettes these days

[Brian Henderson]

I'd ask them how much they're spending for a pack of cigarettes these days

I'm sure they don't think cigarettes are dangerous either. There's no reasoning with some people. They're STILL talking about it.

[Peter Kelly]

I ended up getting into a discussion over on YouTube on a video of Adam Savage, of Mythbusters fame, doing woodworking. He was grinding down LDF, which he said had no formaldehyde, and making tons and tons of sawdust with no dust collection and no mask. I pointed out that it was dangerous to do, the dust could get into his lungs and cause breathing problems, not only now, but in the future. I was amazed at how many people couldn't get it through their heads that dust, in and of itself, is dangerous to breathe in, they kept arguing that it wasn't toxic, therefore it was fine.

Eventually, I just gave up. What do you say to such people who haven't got a clue?

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[Keith Pleas]

I would have said that dust is hazardous rather than dangerous.

[David Ragan]

What is your source for that information?

I do IT work, much of it amongst doctors and have quizzed them on what they see in regards to patients suffering from wood dust exposure and they are extremely dismissive of the idea.

OK-I am a physician board certified in FP and Occupational Medicine.

I cannot give you a citation for the WW>coal miners. (That is exactly why I put it the way I did-I cant recall who told me that.)

My wife is office mgr for a pulmonary group-one of the pulmonologists was on my case forever about wearing a dust mask---and finally gave up thankfully.

However, if you look at the literature (try Google scholar) you will find loads in reputable scientific journals about hypersensitivity pneumonitis, pneumoconiosis, etc, Please contact me via PM if you have trouble in your search.

[Peter Kelly]

I ended up getting into a discussion over on YouTube on a video of Adam Savage, of Mythbusters fame, doing woodworking. He was grinding down LDF, which he said had no formaldehyde, and making tons and tons of sawdust with no dust collection and no mask. I pointed out that it was dangerous to do, the dust could get into his lungs and cause breathing problems, not only now, but in the future. I was amazed at how many people couldn't get it through their heads that dust, in and of itself, is dangerous to breathe in, they kept arguing that it wasn't toxic, therefore it was fine.

Eventually, I just gave up. What do you say to such people who haven't got a clue?

Was this the Barbarella Gun episode? I like his techniqe for workholding on the mill/drill (using his hand) whilst machining out the stock..

That Tested series is all full of wince-worthy shop moments. Hard to watch.

[Mark Bolton]

I cannot give you a citation for the WW>coal miners. (That is exactly why I put it the way I did-I cant recall who told me that.)

Coming from "the coal state" I can only feel a statement like that sounds very much like a sound bite that would come from the coal industry or a coal industry lawyer. Not saying in any way that you, or your source, are either of those but one cant help but to wonder if the stat came from the coal industry. Just a wild guess.

With all that, I simply cant see it. We have people in this state passing away on a regular basis from black lung. I honestly cant say I have ever heard of someone passing away due to wood dust exposure though Im sure it hasnt helped many peoples lung function in some way shape or form.

[John Goodin]

Water is pretty inert, but if you fill your lungs with it you have a serious problem. I doubt a credible pluminologist exists that would deny the long term negative impact of particulate build up in the lungs.

[Keith Hankins]

One of the major reasons I switched to Festool, was the DC. It's integrated in every tool by design. Don't regret it.

[Shawn Pixley]

Mark,

Nice post. I tend to mostly agree with you. I have nothing to add relative to wood working. Where I minorly differ is in the relative nature of hobbyist to working in the field.

LOML or SWMBO is a member of an acredited reasonably large Gem and Mineral Society. In the last five years, they have had three hobbyists die from silicosis due to dry grinding stone (which the G&MS prohibits in their shop). Admittedly they were all in their late 60's early 70's. The point about exposure relative of a tradesperson to hobbyist is accurate in term of long term exposure. But from that we should not infer that there is no or even very, very little risk to the hobbyist. Even hobbyists can get enough in their lungs to cause harm.

I use dust collectors and vacuums. And would encourage others to do so. But I am not obsessive. I don't get out the DC when hand sawing a board for instance. There should be a reasonable-ness to how we approach various risks. As Aristotle said, "moderation in all things."

[Pat Barry]

I'm sure they don't think cigarettes are dangerous either. There's no reasoning with some people. They're STILL talking about it.

If I end up with terminal illness I will immediately go back to smoking. Its been 11 years since I quit and sometimes am very tempted to have a heater.

[Mark Bolton]

Mark,

Nice post. I tend to mostly agree with you. I have nothing to add relative to wood working. Where I minorly differ is in the relative nature of hobbyist to working in the field.

LOML or SWMBO is a member of an acredited reasonably large Gem and Mineral Society. In the last five years, they have had three hobbyists die from silicosis due to dry grinding stone (which the G&MS prohibits in their shop). Admittedly they were all in their late 60's early 70's. The point about exposure relative of a tradesperson to hobbyist is accurate in term of long term exposure. But from that we should not infer that there is no or even very, very little risk to the hobbyist. Even hobbyists can get enough in their lungs to cause harm.

I use dust collectors and vacuums. And would encourage others to do so. But I am not obsessive. I don't get out the DC when hand sawing a board for instance. There should be a reasonable-ness to how we approach various risks. As Aristotle said, "moderation in all things."

Sure, I dont doubt that there are examples out there on all sides. I guess my point was more with regards to people who are at least conscious of it. The comparison between hobby and production shops was more to say that the production shop is kind of the canary in the coal mine. As a general rule those places are going to see the effects sooner, or more wide spread, with people working full time.

Dry grinding stone is an unbelievable exposure. The issue is so well covered it would seem they must have just accepted a long term or severe exposure. Not wise.

[Jeffrey Martel]

One of the major reasons I switched to Festool, was the DC. It's integrated in every tool by design. Don't regret it.

Dust is one of the reasons why I'm switching more and more to hand tools. I don't do this for a living, so time isn't as big of a concern for me. I also recently purchased a respirator that I wear when using power tools (minus my sander which hooks up to my shop vac).