Kind of like saying, eat better and exercise. So easy to say, so darn hard to do (I resemble that!)
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Kind of like saying, eat better and exercise. So easy to say, so darn hard to do (I resemble that!)
Contributor
"Swirl marks" and "scratches" are 2 different things, IMO. As Brian correctly notes.............Originally Posted by Mike Dowell
Even if you rub out through pumice and rottenstone, you are leaving scratches - that is not the issue. The issue is "can you see them", or, even more to the point, "can you see them after your are done finishing the piece"?
Using an ROS through 180 should do it. If not, go one more step to 220. Just as a reference - the lowest grit you use is designed to flatten and smooth the surface. After that, each successive grit is there solely to remove the scratches from the prior grit, and replace them with smaller scratches. Never leave your lowest [coarsest] grit until the piece is flat and smooth - just a waste of time.
Last tidbit on this: I learned from somewhere/somebody that as you travel across the wood with the ROS, the max allowable speed is 3 IPS. Don't remember who, where, or when. But - that's what I do. A 24" wide table top takes minimum of 8 seconds - usually I take 10 - for one pass. Get a full beer and light a new cigarette and put the headphones on - preferably Little Feat, but YMMV. IT takes time. Slow down.
Sorry, but not trying to be a wise guy when I say "Well DUH!!!"It cannot put down swirl marks if you wanted it to, since it ain't swirling in action. I bet it is an outstanding last-pass-final-grit piece of gear.
On the Ceros - I have been trying to come up with a plausible excuse to get this one for a couple years. I am waiting for John C to get back to us with Mirka's response on the 5" v 6" interchangeability on the new Deros. The Deros, BTW, does not have the ouboard transformer - which should make it less cumbersome. The tradeoff is an extra 5 oz weight added to the 30.4 oz weight of the Ceros [plus $$$] - but part of that is the 6" capacity.
MIke - I am always here to help, so I gotta tell you this in all honesty and sincerity :Yeah that sander is junk, get a real sander and check back in.
When I started woodworking, I didn't know squat. I have progressed in 30 years - now I do know squat.
Contributor
What does "disappear" mean? It means you can't see them.
Member
If you get a magnifier, you'll be able to see them again. If you get a microscope, you'll be able to see them again. The scratches never go away entirely, they just get small enough that they are invisible to the naked human eye.
Member
Let's not forget Mirka is offering a new sander called Deros. Similar to Ceros, but without the separate transformer. Probably built into the sander. I not know much about the Deros' performance but I believe it's worth waiting for reviews to build up. There's plenty on Ebay now.
Contributor
The only way to get in touch with them is by phone, apparently. There's no e-mail address on the website. I just haven't really been interested enough to spend the time to call them because I have so little time to spend on things these days. It is rather annoying, though, and it's difficult to imagine why they would design the US sander mechanically different than the European one. Baffling, really.
Contributor
I have a Festool sander and am very happy with it especially the dust collection. I use mine e with a Festool dust extractor and it gets at all of the dust. They are well built and fit my hands well.
Member
The best thing you can do is grab some stain (preferably dark) and a few different samples of wood, both soft and hard, and just practice your technique. The problem most people have is that the feed-back is delayed. It can be very hard to see the swirls until you get some stain in it, and usually by then you don't remember the technique you were using. So just spend a half hour of sanding and staining. See what works and what doesn't. It's quite easy and cheap, and I highly recommend it to everyone.
99.9% of my experience is with a pneumatic ROS. From what I've noticed with electric is that they don't have the speed of a pneumatic. Whether or not this can be compensated with technique is debatable. I would love to try the Ceros, I'm getting real tired of hearing the AC run when I'm sanding, it starting to sound like a cash register
Contributor
Woodwerks (here in Gahanna OH) is having their Winter Expo this weekend. They tend to get a fair number of tool reps in for that. I plan to go over tomorrow to check out their Mirka stuff. If there's a rep there I'll (try to remember to) ask them that question.
I'm not into spending $500 extra right now for a special dust vac, so if I can figure out how to adapt the Ceros to a Ridgid shop vac, I think that's pretty much my solution. If they are applying the Expo 10% special to the Mirka gear, so much the better.
Brian
"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger or more complicated...it takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." - E.F. Schumacher
Contributor
How can this be? Sanding is removing material, once you've removed the material past the bottom of the scratch how can it not be gone? The only times I've had a problem with this is when I try to go too fast and not complete each grade, or if I try to skip a grade. If you jump from 80 to 150 it will take forever to get rid of the scratches, much faster to go 80-100-120-150, counterintuitive though that might be. The other time scratches can be problematic is with cheap, poorly sized sandpaper grit --it only takes one or two bits of grit on a disk that are a lot bigger than they're supposed to be to make a mess of your work.
I've very intrigued by this Ceros/Deros discussion, somehow these sanders have escaped my attention up until now. Would I expect a noticeable difference in sanding speed switching over from my ~15 year old 6" Bosch ROS? The smaller size/weight is very attractive. My belt sander just died so it has me thinking about a new sander. I see that the Ceros comes with a choice of two orbit sizes, I'm not sure how to think about what the effect of a larger orbit might be. Is a bigger orbit going to be more aggressive?
[OP]
Member
You all are a trip! This is great input by the way. Ok, so I've gleaned a few points from this:
1) slow down
2) don't press down on the sander (I did not know this)
3) although it won't solve much, it might be nice to upgrade my sander.
I don't have the stomach to drop $500 on a sander - although I should because it's definitely one of my most used tools - but I'm cheap. I think I might check out that Bosch that was mentioned though. at $225, I could enjoy it. If I got that, would you suggest the 5" or the 6"?
Also, here's a question about my Dewalt. When I turn it on, the disc orbits but it spins too. I know that it is suppose to orbit and "rotate" which is where the random part comes from but this thing spins like a high speed buffer. Is that normal? Take a look - View My Video
Member
my craftsman spun very fast (i can't view your video) I replaced the bearing and it got a lot better.
Contributor
Why are there still scratches? Because you used sandpaper to remove the previous scratches, so, although you removed material, you did it using sandpaper, which will leave scratches. So, you start with a rough sand paper and it leaves big scratches, and then you move to a finer sandpaper and it leaves smaller / finer scratches, and so on. If you use 2000 grit sandpaper, he is saying that it will leave 2000 grit sized scratches because that is how sandpaper works.
In the real world, something breaks down (probably, pure speculation) based on the relative fiber size compared to the particle size on the paper.
If you want to avoid scratches, use a smoothing plane, although by the same argument, you might argue that the abrasive used to sharpen the blade leaves a scratch pattern, which will in turn be transferred to the wood. I give up!
No comments on the Ceros / Deros other than the fact that my local Woodcraft has a Ceros setup that you can play with if you like. Does not help you since you are not in Columbus Ohio, but, you might be able to give something a try.
Contributor
It's easy. Go to Woodcraft and they have a cheap hose that will thread right on. Then rummage through their dust collection stuff and find suitable adapters. I think I ended up duct taping two adapters together to make it work, but adapters are definitely available to make the hookup.
Incidentally, I use the Abranet sanding mesh also, and it's fantastic. I use their backing pad to remove some wear and tear on the Ceros pad because they're so expensive. Have fun with your Ceros. You're going to love it.
Member
Because the method of removing those scratches is adding new scratches. That's how abrasives work. It's just ever decreasingly sized scratches. It doesn't matter how far you go, if you're using 1000-grit sandpaper, if you're using 8000 grit stones, you're still leaving some level of scratches on your workpiece or your chisel or whatever. There's a time when the unaided human eye can no longer detect the scratches, when the unaided human finger can no longer feel the scratches. It doesn't mean there are no more scratches, just that it's not possible to detect without more sensitive equipment than you have built in.
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