GFCI question

[Rick Potter]

I have a rental house which was inspected by Section 8 inspector a couple days ago. She found a GFCI plug near the kitchen sink that did not work. I went over and checked it out, finding that my little tester shows it is installed properly, with the ground working and the plugs (I found two) having power. When I push the test button on the tester nothing happens, when I push the test button on the plugs, nothing happens. Nothing happens when I push the reset button either. The plug has power but nothing trips it.

HOWEVER, the tenant states that her toaster popped the GFCI (I must mention here that the tenant has a bit of trouble understanding things).

I called a friend who is a master electrician, and he wonders if the lead and load wires were installed correctly. I am going to replace both plugs and check this, but the plugs have not been touched in the 12 years I have been working on the house. I do not remember if I checked them before, but it's on my check list when the place is rented, and S-8 has inspected many times.

The house is from the early '50's, and originally had no ground wires, although someone in the past has put in grounds to several plugs. About 3 years ago I had the house re-piped with copper, and have no idea what, if anything, was done to any ground wires. I do know that GFCI's work properly, and are legal, without using ground wires in older homes, so it seems they should work with or without. The bathroom has one without grounds, and works fine. (Boy, did I have to fight the inspector on that one).

Probably too much info, sorry for running on.

Any ideas?

[Scott Shepherd]

Sounds like a bad GFI to me. They are cheap, simple enough to install a new one and see if it works. I'm betting it's gone bad.

[Mike Lassiter]

how can the GFI (ground fault interrupter) work if there is no ground wire connected to it?

[Rod Sheridan]

how can the GFI (ground fault interrupter) work if there is no ground wire connected to it?

Simple, they don't require a ground to work.

They're a differential current sensor.

If the current on the line lead is different than the current in the neutral lead, some has gone to ground, and they trip.

Regards, Rod.

[Mike Lassiter]

I just researched it and that's what I found out. So..... What I thought I knew for many years was incorrect.
Getting smarter everyday!

[Von Bickley]

Simple, they don't require a ground to work.

[B]They're a differential current sensor.

If the current on the line lead is different than the current in the neutral lead, some has gone to ground, and they trip.

Regards, Rod[/B].

That is the best explanation you will ever find......

[Lee Schierer]

If the GFCI has the incoming power connected to the wrong side if the device, it won't trip. The first step might be to just pull it out of the box and see if it is connected properly.

[Rich Engelhardt]

GFCI's can go bad all of a sudden.
We have 4 rentals and we buy them in bulk.

I've noticed that once one has been tripped once, they seem to go out almost right away.

Brands don't seem to matter.
We've used Cooper, Leviton, what ever Menards carries and Harbor Freight.
None seem to last any longer than any other - except maybe the Harbor Freight.
That may be wishful thinking on my part though.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

I just researched it and that's what I found out. So..... What I thought I knew for many years was incorrect.
Getting smarter everyday!

Hey, me too. Thanks Mike for asking, and Rod for the intel!

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Follow up, Rod how does an arc fault plug work?

[Jim Becker]

GFCI outlets "do" go bad over time...but it's absolutely a good idea to check that it is installed properly before you do the replacement.

[Rick Potter]

Well, I went there today and installed the two new GFCI's. They were wired correctly for individual use, but not to protect other plugs. Since there were two of them about 6' apart on the kitchen counter, I rewired them the same way...individually. They had no ground wires, by the way.

They both work properly now. It was a real job getting them in. The 12GA wires were thicker than newer 12's, and they were in a metal box with a plaster ring, leaving almost no room for the plug. My friend dropped by to check them out and give me a hand. Just to be safe, we wrapped the contact screws with electrical tape, because the plaster ring was very close.

By the way, with an ungrounded GFCI, the little plug in tester gives a false reading, and the test button on it will not work properly. According to the HUD guidelines for inspection, the only way to test an ungrounded GFCi is to push the button on it. If it clicks off, it is working.

Thanks for the help, guys.

[Robert Delhommer Sr]

A GFCI works by comparing the current between the hot lead and the neutral and does not involve the ground at all to function. Sounds like your GFCI died.

[Rick Potter]

When I went to by my new GFCI's I found a model that had a little light on it, but it wasn't a power on light, or a power tripped light. On the box, it said it had an 'end of life' light. If it came on, it was time to replace the unit. That seemed a bit strange to me, and maybe confusing if you have a mixture of brands.

[Rich Engelhardt]

On the box, it said it had an 'end of life' light. If it came on, it was time to replace the unit. That seemed a bit strange to me, and maybe confusing if you have a mixture of brands.

Boy does it ever sound like a confusing mess looking for a place to happen!
Thank you for bringing that up/pointing that out.
That's just one more thing someone thought up that's sure to make my life more complicated.
I swear to all that's holy that people in this world get up in the morning and think:
"Hmm, what can we do to irritate Rich today"?