Water based finish over walnut

[Phil Thien]

I have yet to find a water-based finish that looks decent on walnut.

That includes walnut I first finish with Watco dark-walnut oil.

If I finish the same piece with an oil-based finish like a gel varnish, it is (to me) gorgeous.

With water-based finishes (even with the amber colorant), it is dull and lifeless.

Am I doing something wrong?

[glenn bradley]

I always prefer "in the wood" finishes as I also consider this look gorgeous. I use an oil varnish mix and have not found the need for something else. I do up the varnish content for table 'tops' but, use the standard blend on the balance of the piece. Do you have a special condition where you want a waterborne poly topcoat or something else task specific?

[Phil Thien]

I always prefer "in the wood" finishes as I also consider this look gorgeous. I use an oil varnish mix and have not found the need for something else. I do up the varnish content for table 'tops' but, use the standard blend on the balance of the piece. Do you have a special condition where you want a waterborne poly topcoat or something else task specific?

In this case I was using the waterborne because I had already used it for another project in the same room (some shelves in a bath). Those shelves are maple and the waterborne looks fine on them.

But this project added some walnut and I was torn over whether I should switch to an oil-based finish or continue-on with the waterborne.

I've also felt, over the last couple of years, that I should be perfecting my waterborne application techniques, I'm not sure how much longer I'll be able to source the good stuff (the cans keep getting smaller and more expensive). And I've gotten REAL GOOD at applying it, just don't like the look on walnut and to a lesser degree cherry.

[Prashun Patel]

Phil, there was an interesting spot on this in Shoptalk live a year or two ago. Jeff Jewitt explained that in addition to the color, waterborne finishes refract light from the wood cells differently than do oil based finishes. So, while your top coat may be optically clear, the wood underneath appears to lack the translucence and luster that you may have come to love in oil finishes (I'm with you on that).

I too feel that we're on a shrinking glacier with respect to the 'good stuff' and we better learn to swim in the world of waterborne finishes.

I have just purchased my first can of Enduro Clear Poly and am going to experiment with it. I wonder if you may improve results by pre-sealing the wood heavily with shellac or oil, and then keeping the top, waterbased topcoat very thin.

[Phil Thien]

Phil, there was an interesting spot on this in Shoptalk live a year or two ago. Jeff Jewitt explained that in addition to the color, waterborne finishes refract light from the wood cells differently than do oil based finishes. So, while your top coat may be optically clear, the wood underneath appears to lack the translucence and luster that you may have come to love in oil finishes (I'm with you on that).

I too feel that we're on a shrinking glacier with respect to the 'good stuff' and we better learn to swim in the world of waterborne finishes.

I have just purchased my first can of Enduro Clear Poly and am going to experiment with it. I wonder if you may improve results by pre-sealing the wood heavily with shellac or oil, and then keeping the top, waterbased topcoat very thin.

Very interesting (the refraction issue). Boy I sure hope someone comes along and figures out a way to make this waterborne stuff work better.

I'm also interested to hear what you have to say on the Enduro. I've used it, but don't want to add any comments until I read your findings.

[John TenEyck]

Phil, what WB product were you using? I finished this little walnut jewelry box with GF's Hi Perf. Poly. The red color was just an experiment - not one I'd repeat - but I think you can see that the finish is very clear, not plastic looking, and not dead looking.

IMG_5552.JPG

This walnut veneer dresser also was finished with GF's HP Poly over BLO and Sealcoat shellac. Looks pretty stunning. Great depth and transparency. I don't think a solvent based finish could show it off any better.

IMG_3690.JPG

Enduro Clear Poly looks the same as HP Poly to me, but has better chemical durability. It's my new favorite WB finish. It sprays just as easily as the HP Poly.

John

[Phil Thien]

John, I've tried all the big names. I think they are more similar than different, actually. That is the thing that has irked me, having fallen for what I think is hype in terms of what some products claim they can achieve in the similarity (to oil-based) department.

And while those pieces look very nice, I do think they'd look different if you had used an oil-based finish. Especially the little jewelry box. I think I'd prefer an oil based finish there.

[John TenEyck]

The jewelry box was shot with a toner of GF HP Poly and Transtint dye. Maybe that influenced your reaction. The lower piece was BLO, Sealcoat shellac then HP Poly. I can't imagine it looking any better with oil based varnish. I think the depth and clarity is greater with the WB product than it would be with an OB varnish. So, yeah, I agree it would have looked different with an OB varnish. To me it would have looked less clear. I guess if you see that as a positive aspect then you should stick to OB varnish.

John

[Ethan Melad]

I just put together some walnut samples for a client - I found Watco medium walnut under 3 coats of Target EM2000 in semigloss looked really great. Far, far better than the same finish over WB amber shellac. Client has the sample now, but I can take a picture when I get it back.

[Jim Becker]

I also don't prefer water borne directly over walnut...but it's perfectly fine for top coats. A simple coat of de-waxed shellac will add a little amber or you can go all the way and apply a very light coat of oil, the de-waxed shellac and then the water borne top coat. I have added dye to the water borne and it does a relatively good job but not a great job, but still prefer the look of the oil/shellac/water borne combination that I also use on Cherry. It's a subjective thing...

[Jack Clark]

This link leads to an interesting discussion by some professional finishers. A little dated, doesn't really provide any definite answers, but interesting.

http://www.woodweb.com/knowledge_bas..._Coatings.html

Phil, have you tried GF Enduo-Var directly on walnut? I've only used it on white and red oak. Nice product.

Here's an even better discussion, right here on the Creek:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthre...r-Borne-Finish

[Mike Tagge]

Don't know if this helps but I just did a finish with walnut and shellac topcoat. I was considering a waterbourne lacquer but opted for a French polish. However, prior to finishing, the walnut looked kind of dull and dreary. I added some transtint dye to it, some natural Danish oil after and then finished with the shellac. I don't think the results would be different with the waterbourne versus the shellac as neither really gives the "pop" that the old oil based finishes do.

[Jim Tobias]

Phil,
I'm with you on this one. I tried Danish oil and dyes, etc under WB topcoats and could never get the deep warmth that I expected. I have started using straight Waterlox Original Sealer/Finish on walnut (and other woods) and am very happy with results. Wear the right mask and be patient for cure time.......but a predictable look.
Jim

[bruce erdman]

I have yet to find a water-based finish that looks decent on walnut.

That includes walnut I first finish with Watco dark-walnut oil.

If I finish the same piece with an oil-based finish like a gel varnish, it is (to me) gorgeous.

With water-based finishes (even with the amber colorant), it is dull and lifeless.

Am I doing something wrong?

I have been finishing walnut with various waterborne finish brands for years. I have attached a couple examples.

[Andrew Hughes]

Bruce that's some crazy cool work.I like it.My favorite water based is generals water based laquer.Its very clear no amber tones. I don't spray anymore so I've got my sponge technique down pat.I also like the way it fills pores with a sponge.