This felt a lot safer on the SawStop

[keith micinski]

How is plunge cutting on a router table or using a handheld router any safer then plunge cutting on a table saw? What if the router tilted a little which they are prone to do when working on small pieces? What if a meteor fell out of the sky and hit his shop while he was trying that plunge cut? I'm not sure how half the people around here even bring themselves to do woodworking when all they do is try and identify every single safety hazard that could go wrong. "Slippery oily teak" was actually used as an example. Who in the heck has ever picked a piece of teak up, fumbled it around, dropped it and said "damn that oily teak, it's everywhere, you can't even hold that darn thing" I would have a hard time enjoying woodworking if that was what consumed every part of a project. Working safely is great but eliminating all safety hazards with a power tool is not possible. Recognizing them and using common sense to get a job done is. Nice job on getting that grill made, looks real good and I'm sure the person you made them for was real happy with how they turned out.

[jack duren]

How is plunge cutting on a router table or using a handheld router any safer then plunge cutting on a table saw? What if the router tilted a little which they are prone to do when working on small pieces? What if a meteor fell out of the sky and hit his shop while he was trying that plunge cut? I'm not sure how half the people around here even bring themselves to do woodworking when all they do is try and identify every single safety hazard that could go wrong.

Been there, already done that. Picture better explains it.

[Roy Turbett]

JR -

The one thing that strikes me with what I think is an otherwise good setup is the height of the blade. It seems that a plunge cut with the blade that high would increase the likelyhood of a kickback which the Sawstop wouldn't help. If the blade is set to just penetrate the top, the arc on the bottom would be a little longer but still on the backside of the grill. If both sides are visible, you could cut the piece in two passes with the blade slightly lower than the thickness of the wood by flipping it over and cleaning the ends by hand.

[Kent A Bathurst]

I think it looks a lot scarier than it really is.

Yep. I've done if a couple times before, not really a big deal.

In this case, I would do what you suggested, adding a couple details:
> Draw a witness line across the piece at the end toward the front of the saw - this is the target "cut-tio" line
> Align/position so that the piece starts closest to the front of the saw, justified against that front block
> Raise the blade until it touches the witness line
> push fwd until you hit the back stop block
> Hit the Off switch with your thigh, never let go of the piece.d
> One more safety bit: MOdify/add to the pair of stop blocks. YOu want a horizontal piece running front-to back - a "ceiling stop" if you will - the piece cannot lift up off the table high enough to clear the stop blocks.

[Brian Holcombe]

How is plunge cutting on a router table or using a handheld router any safer then plunge cutting on a table saw? What if the router tilted a little which they are prone to do when working on small pieces? What if a meteor fell out of the sky and hit his shop while he was trying that plunge cut? I'm not sure how half the people around here even bring themselves to do woodworking when all they do is try and identify every single safety hazard that could go wrong. "Slippery oily teak" was actually used as an example. Who in the heck has ever picked a piece of teak up, fumbled it around, dropped it and said "damn that oily teak, it's everywhere, you can't even hold that darn thing" I would have a hard time enjoying woodworking if that was what consumed every part of a project. Working safely is great but eliminating all safety hazards with a power tool is not possible. Recognizing them and using common sense to get a job done is. Nice job on getting that grill made, looks real good and I'm sure the person you made them for was real happy with how they turned out.

IMO there is a safe way to perform every task needed in woodworking.

One of my friends was injured doing a similar procedure to the one mentioned. Not surprisingly, when he went back to it after not being able to grip with one hand for over a year, and he found a safer way....

I'll propose that a fabricated grill, while more time consuming to produce, will provide a better result and will stay flat over the years. I do not expect that a grill made in the above posted manner will stay flat over time. A fabricated grill could be produced using half laps, would have a cleaner result since the area between the slats could be worked flat, and could be installed into a tighter fit, since the outside edge of the frame would be the only part that would need to consider seasonal movement.

[Ethan Melad]

I'm not sure how half the people around here even bring themselves to do woodworking when all they do is try and identify every single safety hazard that could go wrong.

I agree completely with you, Keith.

[Mark Carlson]

IMO plunge and tablesaw should never be used in the same sentence. If you know better go for it. I usually bite my tongue when stuff like this is suggested, but I wouldn't want someone new to woodworking thinking this was a good idea.

[Sam Murdoch]

How is plunge cutting on a router table or using a handheld router any safer then plunge cutting on a table saw? What if the router tilted a little which they are prone to do when working on small pieces? What if a meteor fell out of the sky and hit his shop while he was trying that plunge cut? I'm not sure how half the people around here even bring themselves to do woodworking when all they do is try and identify every single safety hazard that could go wrong. "Slippery oily teak" was actually used as an example. Who in the heck has ever picked a piece of teak up, fumbled it around, dropped it and said "damn that oily teak, it's everywhere, you can't even hold that darn thing" I would have a hard time enjoying woodworking if that was what consumed every part of a project. Working safely is great but eliminating all safety hazards with a power tool is not possible. Recognizing them and using common sense to get a job done is. Nice job on getting that grill made, looks real good and I'm sure the person you made them for was real happy with how they turned out.

This is a forum of woodworkers of all levels of experience. I think those of us who have been at it a long time have a responsibility - when taking the time to post here - to not be casual about undertaking operations that are not standard and that are particularly dangerous. I think your comment (in blue) Keith is a bit glib. One should not be breaking the rules unless one knows the rules and that applies here very well.

I am the one who wrote of oily teak - NO its is not oily as an oil slick but it and all the dust laying about that table saw surface can certainly be more slippery than other woods. Did that add an extra level of danger to the operation? OK maybe I am guilty of hyperbole in this case. I fully agree with your last sentences (in purple). But I for one do try to consider and account for all aspects of potential hazards when setting up for an woodworking operation and consider that time well spent - not neurotic or diminishing of the fun in any way. The subject of this thread is a table saw operation which ONLY AN EXPERT WOODWORKER should attempt and then even he/she should consider other and safer ways of achieving the same end - a few of which have been suggested in the posts that followed.

[Lee Schierer]

How is plunge cutting on a router table or using a handheld router any safer then plunge cutting on a table saw?

The big difference is that with a router you have both hands on the thing with the whirling blade and no where near the blade if something goes wrong, not on the piece being cut. The likely hood of losing a finger when plunge cutting with a router is far far less than lowering a piece of wood by hand onto a moving table saw blade. Whether you are a professional with 40 years of experience or a novice, lowering a piece of material onto a moving saw blade is dangerous and is asking for trouble. There are several safer ways to accomplish the same cut that are much less hazardous.

[Frederick Skelly]

I'm not sure how half the people around here even bring themselves to do woodworking when all they do is try and identify every single safety hazard... Working safely is great but eliminating all safety hazards with a power tool is not possible. Recognizing them and using common sense to get a job done is.

Personally, I really value the emphasis on safe working at SMC. I think we "bring ourselves to do woodworking" because we try to avoid hazardous situations if at all possible - and share that to keep our mutual situational awareness a bit higher. I recently invested $200 in a Shark Guard after reading a lot about TS safety here - for a saw that never had a guard in the 15 years since I bought it. And just today I spent the afternoon making some new push sticks to keep my hands further from the blade - again, based on input received here. (Not everyone has a sawstop just yet.)

The OP can do whatever he wants with the input we provided, just like all of us do. If he feels safe doing the work, Im good with that. We're all big boys and girls. I think folks were trying to help.

Personally, I hope the community will continue to nudge me in the direction of being more aware of my safety.

Fred

[Don Quan]

I dropped a piece of phenolic over a router bit to make the slot to accommodate the riving knife in a table saw ZCI. The set up was very similar to the table saw set up in the OPs post. To keep my hands away from the router bit, I used a Gripprr, and essentially captured the phenolic piece between the router fence, the front stop and the table surface. Still made me anxious though. I would be scared witless to do multiple cuts on a table saw as pictured.

Stepping away from the machine tools most of us have in the shop, the work piece is a perfect fit for a CNC machine. Safe, repeatable and hands free!

[Tony Joyce]

How is plunge cutting on a router table or using a handheld router any safer then plunge cutting on a table saw? What if the router tilted a little which they are prone to do when working on small pieces? What if a meteor fell out of the sky and hit his shop while he was trying that plunge cut? I'm not sure how half the people around here even bring themselves to do woodworking when all they do is try and identify every single safety hazard that could go wrong. "Slippery oily teak" was actually used as an example. Who in the heck has ever picked a piece of teak up, fumbled it around, dropped it and said "damn that oily teak, it's everywhere, you can't even hold that darn thing" I would have a hard time enjoying woodworking if that was what consumed every part of a project. Working safely is great but eliminating all safety hazards with a power tool is not possible. Recognizing them and using common sense to get a job done is. Nice job on getting that grill made, looks real good and I'm sure the person you made them for was real happy with how they turned out.

+1 Well put.

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[Keith Weber]

I, personally, wouldn't attempt that with or without a SawStop. Too high a risk of a kickback. If it kicks back, your hand could get knocked into the blade. So, I guess we could ask ourselves... Would I be comfortable taking my hand and quickly and forcefully swatting a fully-raised, spinning blade on a SawStop? For me, the answer is an emphatic "No Freaking Way!" To anyone who thinks they'd be comfortable doing this, PLEASE make a video so I can see that. I'll even pay for the new SawStop cartridge and blade. On second thought, there might be someone out there dumb enough to try this, so it'd probably be best to retract that offer so as not to be liable.

[John Coloccia]

In this case, it seems as though a kickback pushes his hand even further away from the blade if he's standing on the left side as I assume he is. If you're positioned properly, yes you're risking a kickback, but it's hard to figure out where the real danger is, despite how scary and dangerous it actually looks.

[Brian W Smith]

Am VERY reluctant to post on matters like this because of splitting hairs WRT....what one guy considers "safe" another can be totally shocked.Knowing the OP to be a professional,I'd give him a thumbs up for.....#1,figure he did an assessment...#2 gives sort of an inside look at SS technology,in practical terms...#3 had the "vision" to even post.All good in my pea brain.

But now for some esoteric meanderings;Do you-all know what a "safe edge file" is?The "safe" here isn't about poking your eye out with a handtool while running across the shop floor,haha.No,it's "safe" because the edges don't have teeth.....you can file into a 90* corner and only do work on the surface that needs it.So you sort of need to stop thinking that safety is limited to your digits(as in,personal safety).Let's say the OP had his grill screwed or glued to a long stick,providing all the personal safety in the world.....you have to ask yourself,"Is this a safe cut" for the work pce?

Once you're under insurance/OSHA scrutiny and we have ALL the guards,ALL the time...you'll start to see what I'm talking about.Is this cut the safest,for the part/s?It is in this way that I think the OP's methodology wouldn't have occurred in our shop.It isn't the safest way for the part......sorry,come up with something else.Have one part,"jump the jig" and see where all that time saved taking an easy approach went?

I'll leave the HVAC side of this somewhat alone,haha.......there are issues with wooden grills that are out of the scope here.