Brand New and Overwhelmed with Powertool Options

[Peter Aeschliman]

One question I have is since I have a Festool track saw with parallel guides would my best course be to get a 16" J/P and a small sliding TS? Use the Festool to breakdown large sheets then use the sliding TS to further dimension the sheets? Would I be to limited on working with lumber with this set up? If so, would that mean I should get a cabinet saw instead?

This is precisely what I would recommend. The only downside of a medium sized slider is that you won't be able to use the slider for rip cuts on long workpieces, which means you will need to use the rip fence for those cuts. The parallel guides on the track saw will do your parallel cuts fine, but it's so much faster and easier to use the table saw.

I point this out because hand-fed rip cuts using the rip fence are the most dangerous kind of cut to make on the table saw. If you're new to woodworking, it might be a little difficult for me to convey in writing... but the longer format style sliders (The huge really expensive ones) have more stroke in the sliding table mechanism. For a rough sawn board that you want to put one straight edge on, you can attach a "ripping shoe" at the far end of the sliding table, push the end of your workpiece into it to hold it down, and hold the other end and feed your work through the blade. This establishes one straight edge.

Then you have one of two choices. You can come up with a fancy rigging on your sliding table that will allow you to use the sliding table to make your parallel rip cut (this is the safest method, but it requires your sliding table to slide at least as far as your workpiece is long), or you can do the traditional north american style cut where you don't use the sliding table and instead use the rip fence and feed by hand (less safe, but really easy and quick).

One thing though, is that the euro saws are usually equipped with extruded aluminum fences which can be pulled back toward the operator, so that the end of the fence is only slightly past the tooth gullets at the front of the blade. This eliminates the pinch zone between the fence and blade. When a workpiece gets pinched, the teeth at the back of the blade can catch the workpiece and throw it back in your face (DAMHIKT)...

So, in my mind, the huge sliding tables are ideal in the sense that you really don't need a rip fence for the vast majority of your cuts, which makes them the safest and most functional saws on the market. The more you start using the rip fence, the less safe the saw is and the more a sawstop might make more sense for you. Unfortunately Sawstop doesn't make a true sliding table saw, which is a major bummer IMHO.

Hope that helps!

[John Sanford]

Among other tools, I have a 16" J/P and 5' slider in my 15'x25' shop. It's a little cramped but mostly works out ok if I break plywood sheets down with the track saw and remove the saw outrigger when not in use. I wouldn't ever go back to a cabinet-type saw fyi.
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Peter,

How quick is removing/installing the outrigger? How much do you use the extension to the right of the blade? Last, have you done a review of the SC2? I just came across that, and am quite intrigued. A 4'-7'(max) slider seems about right for my purposes, and I may go that direction rather than SS. May.

[Jim Matthews]

If you're brand new, with no experience in a working shop
consider taking an introductory course in machine woodworking.

You'll be able to see which machines appeal to you.

You'll take a beating on resale of used tools, regardless of condition.

It's akin to going on a ski vacation, buying all new gear and skipping the lesson.

[Peter Kelly]

Peter,

How quick is removing/installing the outrigger? How much do you use the extension to the right of the blade? Last, have you done a review of the SC2? I just came across that, and am quite intrigued. A 4'-7'(max) slider seems about right for my purposes, and I may go that direction rather than SS. May.

Re-installing the outrigger and getting it perfectly squared up takes a little time but it isn't horrible. I've actually got a shorter miter fence that takes up a bit less space to the left of the blade. The setup is similar to this: http://benchmark.20m.com/tools/Hamme...ceinstall.html

If I had to re-buy, I'd get the narrower rip fence / extension table. I don't find myself using the width much beyond 30" (comes with a 50").

I haven't done a review but the he SC2 is a great little saw and I'm very pleased with it. I'd only trade it for a larger SI 400 if I had the space.

[Rod Sheridan]

Re-installing the outrigger and getting it perfectly squared up takes a little time but it isn't horrible. I've actually got a shorter miter fence that takes up a bit less space to the left of the blade. The setup is similar to this: http://benchmark.20m.com/tools/Hamme...ceinstall.html

If I had to re-buy, I'd get the narrower rip fence / extension table. I don't find myself using the width much beyond 30" (comes with a 50").

I haven't done a review but the he SC2 is a great little saw and I'm very pleased with it. I'd only trade it for a larger SI 400 if I had the space.

Hi Peter, I'm unsure of what you mean by having to re-square the outrigger?

I have a Hammer B3 and the outrigger goes on and off the saw without re-adjustment.

Thanks, Rod.

[Peter Kelly]

Unfortunately, my shop is the lower level of a barn on my parent's property about 120 miles from where I live. When I'm not there, my dad and two younger brothers also use the machines. I'd say that they're opinion of "square" is not exactly the same as mine so I use the 5-cut method to set the outrigger fence up every time I re-install the fence.

If I were the exclusive user of the shop, things would be different. Maybe I'll change the lock...

[Andrew Joiner]

Unfortunately, my shop is the lower level of a barn on my parent's property about 120 miles from where I live. When I'm not there, my dad and two younger brothers also use the machines. I'd say that they're opinion of "square" is not exactly the same as mine so I use the 5-cut method to set the outrigger fence up every time I re-install the fence.

If I were the exclusive user of the shop, things would be different. Maybe I'll change the lock...

Peter. I don't know why, but for some reason when I read your posts I hear it in Ron Swanson's voice.

[Daniel McPherson]

Hey guys, FYI, I am not totally new to woodworking. I built a bird house in Scouts when I was 11.

Really though, here is what I am envisioning:

22'X28' shop. Bulk wood stored in a different building. Maybe a small rack that holds about a projects worth of wood in the shop.

4'x8' table in the room for assembly. I can put a piece of pink foam board on it to run my Festool track saw on for breaking down large boards. Along one wall will be my Festool Kapex and sustainers with sanders etc.

A 16" combo J/P with a separate sliding TS (not a combo unit)

I have a full size Ellis drill press in my metal shop but I heard I shouldn't mix the two hobbies on it because it may get metal shavings and oil on my wood. So here are my questions:

Do I really need a DP for woodworking? I have hand drills and I COULD clean the Ellis DP up if it was only an occasional need with wood.
What size sliding TS should I be looking at with this setup?

Other than a dust system is there something else I need to buy in the way of major machines.

Also, one little point to keep in mind. I am extremely limited on time. I have 7 kids, a farm with a ton of animals etc so when I get time to pursue my hobbies I want it to be exactly what I want. I don't like feeling like I compromised or am being held back by not having a piece of equipment I needed to make the project go smoothly so I want to do it right. Fortunatly my wife lets me spend the money I get from bailing hay in the middle of the night on whatever tools I want.

[Alan Lightstone]

Hi, yes, good dust collection eliminates the need for an air cleaner.

If the dust has already made it into the shop air, you need to wear a respirator to keep it out of your lungs, no fun at all.

I strongly disagree. I definitely feel you need both. I have a Dylos particle counter, which shows how much airborne dust there is. I also have a 5HP Oneida cyclone with large piping to most machines - In other words, fairly serious dust collection to each tool.

That being said, it's amazing how high the particle count gets after things like sanding, using the table saw, etc...

Yes you need to wear a respirator mask (most people like the 3M 7500 series - cheap and very effective), but I can measure that the particle count in my workshop can be brought rapidly back to safe levels with an overhead air cleaner. If I don't turn it on, it takes quite some time until the particles settle, and walking around will just stir them up again.

So, I think having both a good dust collector (think Oneida or Clearvue cyclone) and an overhead air cleaner like the Jet (or other similar models) is an important two pronged approach to saving your lungs.

[Jim Matthews]

Seven kids?

Consider handtool woodworking, instead.
The satisfactions from working with wood
are more immediate when you work by hand.

You'll be slower, but you'll keep money in your pocket,
rather than have expensive machines depreciating
in your shop.

At the very least have a browse of Jim Tolpin's
"The new traditional woodworker" for an overview
of how to farm the donkey work out.

(I buy my lumber nearly dressed to the desired thickness - no jointer or planer needed.)

[Rod Sheridan]

I strongly disagree. I definitely feel you need both. I have a Dylos particle counter, which shows how much airborne dust there is. I also have a 5HP Oneida cyclone with large piping to most machines - In other words, fairly serious dust collection to each tool.

That being said, it's amazing how high the particle count gets after things like sanding, using the table saw, etc...

Yes you need to wear a respirator mask (most people like the 3M 7500 series - cheap and very effective), but I can measure that the particle count in my workshop can be brought rapidly back to safe levels with an overhead air cleaner. If I don't turn it on, it takes quite some time until the particles settle, and walking around will just stir them up again.

So, I think having both a good dust collector (think Oneida or Clearvue cyclone) and an overhead air cleaner like the Jet (or other similar models) is an important two pronged approach to saving your lungs.

Hi, I also have a Dylos particle counter and used it to modify some of my machines to have good dust capture. I simply don't want to have to wear a respirator, or have the dust get into my house, so I concentrated on collecting it at the source.

Tablesaws will absolutely require over the blade collection, and my bandsaw was one of the worst machines.

If you let the dust get into the air you've lost the battle.

Your cyclone will clean the shop air as well as collect from the individual machines..............Regards, Rod.

[Jim Dwight]

One thing I think my drill press is nearly indispensable for is drilling holes for European hinges on doors for cabinets. There are jigs that would let you do that with a hand drill, I think, however.

I don't look at building some thing for the shop as much different from building a furniture or home project. It is still shop time where I get the satisfaction of completing something. I don't like finishing as much as making sawdust so from that aspect I like shop projects more. I don't know how you get to know this kind of thing before you have a shop and use it some. I will use my drill press, I hope, on Saturday, possibly Friday night or tonight, to drill some holes in little blocks of wood, plastic, and aluminum to make a parallel jig for my DeWalt tracksaw. If I has a Festool track saw, I could spend ~$250 for the jig but I enjoy doing things the more difficult and cheaper way sometimes. That kind of logic doesn't sound like that is where you are at.

If that is correct, then it will take you down the more expensive path you appear to have started with your Festool purchases. A sliding table saw could fit in. But with the track saw, I question whether you still need to cut up most or all of a sheet of plywood on it. I think it is safer and easier to do that with a tracksaw. I had a saw with 60 inch rip capacity but plan to stay with a 30 inch capacity saw now that I have the tracksaw. That frees up space in the shop for other tools and for projects.

You may want to look at a MFT style worksurface for your 4x8 table. I haven't built mine yet but that is on my list of projects. If you don't want to build things for the shop, you could get a MFT - but they don't come that large. There is a guy with a thread on the Festool forum selling a jib where you use pegboard and his router base to make a MFT top of essentially unlimited size - would allow you to have a 4x8 MFT - he has one that wide but not quite that long.

If you are into speed and like Festools, I would definitely have a Domino on the list. Maybe both sizes. Mortise and tenon joints are important to nice furniture and useful in cabinets. This looks like the quickest and easiest way to make them.

[Mike Tekin]

I agree with Jim and STRONGLY encourage you to take a furniture class where you can build something to get a feel for the craft. You will spend less than a grand, but you will walk out with skills and also get a feel for the machines in the class.

European machines are great, but I would think long and hard about combo machines if you have the space - nothing beats separate units for efficiency. However, if you go that route, definately stick with Felder/Hammer or MiniMax - precision is important here when holding settings for changing between functions. Second, remember that you don't need fancy European machines to make beautiful and functional furniture. As an example, go to Fine Woodworking and look at the shops of the contributing editors and editors online or other artists in your area for that matter. They don't have new fancy machines wall to wall in their shops. There is a mix of old and new, Grizzly and European, etc.

Wood moves, this isn't metal working, however if money is no object, then forgot about anything anyone told you and go full bore .

[Jim Dwight]

I don't want to argue against a school but I never felt I had time for one and the only time I had one was in Jr. high. Mostly I've learned by reading and doing. Sometimes I learned the hard way and had to start over. But mostly my projects got used. I still have a lot to learn.

I started screwing softwood shelving board together and plugging the screw holes. Belt sander smoothed them up for finish. The first dresser had to have drawers which were wider in front than they were in back because the carcase wasn't square. But it worked and the second carcase was square. Latest dressers have had dovetailed drawers on all 4 corners - but machine cut dovetails. Only one kitchen so far but looking at doing another. Each of my kids have two complete bedroom sets from us all with dovetailed drawers and made of hardwoods. But it wasn't until the last 15 years or so that I've done this sort of work. It took me 15 years to get to this level.

I could have gotten there a lot quicker with a class or two, I'm sure.

[Jim Andrew]

Cool, another farmer on the creek. Do you have lots of trees on your farm? When I was looking at retiring from my town job, I decided I could afford to play with wood if I got my own bandmill. Have a lot more boards than I can probably use in 10 years now. But only have spent money on plywood. And I have built furniture for my daughter and grandkids, wife, nephew, and a few kitchens. Walnut really looks rich in your kitchen.