BF 20 mill/drill as an effective woodshop milling/drilling solution?

[ian maybury]

We've had a couple of threads on pedestal drilling solutions where we more or less concluded that there wasn't a lot available out there in a woodworking oriented quality pillar drill these days. Old iron is possible, but is in short supply and very expensive over here. Mill drills seem to be a pretty viable option. Some of the FOG (Felder guys) are keen on e.g. the similar (?) square column Rong Fu - the older round column types don't hold registration as they are raised and lowered.

Just wondering if anybody can report experience of using a Grizzly G0704 BF 20 class dovetail column mill/drill or a variant (see below) as a woodworking drill press with light milling capability too: http://www.grizzly.com/products/Dril...th-Stand/G0704 and http://www.grizzly.com/catalog/2015/main/593?p=594 Are they practical in this sort of use, is the quality decent, and do they give trouble/have issues or strong suits?

This machine (or a very similar variant - likely from the same factory) is fairly widely distributed in Europe with a few spec differences as an Optimum Opti BF 20 vario: http://www.optimum-machines.com/prod...rio/index.html

There's quite a few potential advantages including a pretty wide 100 - 3,000 electronic speed variation, lots of vertical travel (42mm on the spindle, but 185mm by moving the head), tilting head, around 370mm vertical capacity (not huge, but it's usually possible to drill a jig block and clamp it to larger work to gide hand drill), manual (CNC extra) X/Y positioning table with up to 700/180mm travel - great for setting up jigs etc, routing capability etc., light milling/metalwork capability and probably a very true running spindle for precision drilling....

The big concern i guess is the risk of paying out quite a lot of money, and ending up with a badly built Eastern machine that isn't reliable...

[ian maybury]

Just boucing this once in case somebody comes by….

[Keith Outten]

Ian,

There are many threads in our archives concerning drill press vs mill/drills in woodworking shops. Personally I am in the mill/drill camp, I've owned mine for many years and would never consider going back to a drill press but thats based on the type of work I do. There may be some but I don't know of any drill presses that have bearings designed for both vertical and horizontal loads and all milling machines are rated for both. Mills have more beef, they are designed to withstand much heavier loads thus they will last longer and offer more features. An XY table is invaluable all by itself and offers capability that is very rare on any drill press. I could go on and on but the specifications speak for themselves.

Both of the Grizzly machines you provided links to are nice machines and they have some very attractive features. I can't believe you would be unhappy with either one, in fact I'm sure you will be pleased with the one you select from the first day and many years to come. I suggest that any machine you decide to purchase if it doesn't have the motorized table make sure you can add that option later if you change your mind.
.

[Lee Reep]

Is that mill going to give you enough RPM? I seem to recall Grizzly offering a "wood mill" that ran up to 5000 or 6000 RPM a few years back, but didn't see any reference to one. Maybe CNC routers have rendered a high RPM mill unmarketable? With routers running 15K-20K RPM or higher, 3000 RPM just sounds too slow to me.

[Robert Parent]

I have two mills (X2, Tormach) and they are all I use for drilling. The 'real' drill press has not been turned on in years..... The ability to align a part using the x-y table is priceless. A mill will find lots of uses in a shop beyond drilling.

Robert

[Mike Heidrick]

A G0704 is a popular machine to DIY CNC as well later if you get the bug.

[Jim Andrew]

I was looking at getting a small mill for doing mortises. Grizzly had a couple in their Christmas sale catalog. Wound up buying the G0540 horizontal boring machine, as it has the capability to do mortises.

[Peter Kelly]

Ian, could you not find a Meddings pillar drill in Ireland? http://www.meddings.co.uk/drills-bel...-specification

[ian maybury]

Ta guys, i'd missed the replies. I find myself as Robert seeing the benefits of a mill/drill, with the possible uncertainty (no particular reason to think so) that they might (?) be a little inconvenient to get set up to pop a casual hole now and then. The issue i'm trying to bottom is whether the quality of most of the Chinese made models in this format is acceptable. We don't get Grizzly here, but we do get Wabeco, Opti, Emco, Warco, Clarke, Epple and various others branded by Euro distributors but likely coming from the same factories.

I floated a similar question once before Keith - but was at that time looking more at the round column variety. Which it seems can be very effective too - but speed change by switch and gears instead of belts would be nice, and they don'y hold X/Y registration if you need to move the head up and down. (which i guess can sometimes be worked around by using the drilled hole as a guide)

The BF 20 fomat has a dovetail/rectangular column - but is of course quite a bit more expensive.

The various makes vary a little in terms of RPM range Lee, but most go roughly 100 - 3,000. There's a very nice and probably significantly better built German made variety of the same format machine (Wabeco) which would likely be the business in that it runs a VFD and goes to 7,500 rpm - it'd probably do a decent job of running a router cutter or whatever to do mortises. (one limitation in that case Jim might be an inability to mortice the ends of longer pieces?)

CNC upgrading is a plus Mike - the cost and the complexity gets scary pretty quickly though. One issue might be the fact that ball screws are not so good for manual use, and ACME for CNC - they don't hold position and vice versa.

Decent drill presses do very occasionally come up here Peter (i've been watching for about a year), but it's a tiny market and they are often really rough. No prob in the UK, but the prices for a good used Meddings or Fobco or whatever has crept steadily up to around $1,200. (dealers keep on buying them, and the supply via auctions from educational establishments etc is slowing) Plus it's hard to walk away from the extra capability that the light milling/drilling option delivers. A top of the range Chinese drill while missing some features is also potentially an option - but not if the result was to end up stuck with an expensive version of my current really badly made clunker and is again hard to walk away from milling capability.

An Arboga U2508 or one of several makes of old UK made toolroom mill would cover this territory perfectly via the old iron route, but they have likewise got very expensive here and in the UK. Spares ruinously so….

[glenn bradley]

with the possible uncertainty (no particular reason to think so) that they might (?) be a little inconvenient to get set up to pop a casual hole now and then.

Just as an aside; when I pop a casual hole I use a hand held drill motor ;-) I am following this thread with interest however and thank you for starting it. I have pretty much gotten comfortable that when it is time for a new DP I will get a mill and just deal with the short swing. there are certainly other machines where I "work around" being a home shop and not having room, money, power for giant machines. I hope more folks who have the Grizzly (or like) machines will chime in.

[Peter Kelly]

If this is for mortices, had you considered a Pantourouter? Kuldeep Singh's one allows you to also make tenons as well. Great tool.

http://woodgears.ca/pantorouter/kuldeep/buy.html

[ian maybury]

My thinking Glenn is that when i need to drill a precisely aligned hole on a large assembly that most of the time it should be possible to make a drill jig on the mill from a block of ply or similar - then clamp it to the work and use a hand drill to make the actual hole. Not sure how it will work out in practice, but so far so good. Drill presses unless radial which brings other set up and alignment issues don't have great reach anyway.

The mention of mortices was more a response to Jim Peter, but no - i have a Wood Rat and a Domino which so (not very) far have been OK. I have a crappy old drill press, and need the equivalent of what a good quality true running press would deliver. Having got that far the milling and positiong table capability of a decent mill/drill seems like a fantastic add on. (see first post) The pantarouter is definitely one for the list of links - it looks really effective for that sort of work.

It'd seem such a pity to spend maybe 60% of the money, and just end up with basic drilling.

One of the guys on the Felder FOG site in the UK has an Arboga U2508 mill drill and turned me on to the benefits - one would be great (no quality issues) but so far i haven't been able to snag one at reasonable money...

[ian maybury]

Just to say that i travelled to take a look at an Opti BF 20 Vario today.

It's a nicely made machine (quite nicely machined and finished as befits the good press they get in Germany, but it was much smaller than i'd expected. I'd for example missed that the spindle travel (that's the amount the quill extends by under control of the usual feed handle to the RHS - as opposed to the head travel which is much greater at approching 300mm) is only 50mm, and the reach from the column to the centre of the spindle is also quite small at 185mm.

It'd depend on the size of work you have in mind, but (while needing more thinking about) it's probably smaller than i'd want to go. Going two sizes up in the same format of machine to a BF 46 delivers 115mm spindle travel and 260mm reach, but the price jumps to something more than double at over $5,000. Which is out of my league….

[ian maybury]

Just to update what has been a long saga - sorting out a decent drilling solution for the shop. I've subject to Ok-ing a test sheet ordered an RF 31 clone: http://www.warco.co.uk/milling-machi...g-machine.html They seem to go for about $1,350 in the US, quite a bit more here due to currency differences.

Funny how it goes, but it's come full circle in that over several years and several threads Mike Heidrick, Keith Outen, and Ole Andersen among others have all mentioned the advantages of a belt drive Rong Fu RF 30/31 style mill drill.

At the time I was searching for a drill press, and trying to establish if there was a decent modern woodworking oriented model available. (seemingly not, at least not this side of the Atlantic) This led to a diversion towards old UK made drill presses, but unfortunately they seem to be in short supply/have become hugely expensive (grabbed by dealers) and often very tired. A UK contact brought the thought of an 'old iron' mill drill into focus, e.g. Arboga U2508. Lovely machine, but rare enough and seemingly cornered by the dealers again.

I'd been cautious about RF 31/clone territory given very bad previous experience with a Chinese made pedestal drill, but the above and chance contacts with a couple of guys who spoke highly of them (and seeing one in use with a very skilled machinist) for mixed wood and light metal work placed them in a new light. They can need a bit of dialling in, but it turns out actually that they are far more refined than your mainstream pedestal drill - the test sheet for the one i've ordered suggests less than 1/2 thou runout on the quill for example.

So here's hoping it all works out. Having light milling as well as the usual drilling capability has to be a big positive, as has a positioning table. The work envelope is very decently sized. (500 x 203mm table travel, 130mm quill travel, 480mm under the quill, 100 - 2,000 rpm stock - and very solid) Lots to be said for a 3 year warranty, and very simple to upgrade. e.g. add a VFD and 3 phase motor and overhead routing and slotting may well be a runner.