[OP]
Contributor
Hilel, please DO help us keep this dialogue going. Yes, my particular "bent" is that the deadly threat of working at a lathe is overblown, but this IS a healthy discussion. Pun intended.
The funny thing is most turners are in denial about shop safety. Our club surveyed the general membership about "What Demonstrations Topics Would You Like To See?" safety finished dead last-- less than 2 percent of the responses.
Member
OK, I think I'll chime in. I wasn't going to post, get labeled as a safety fanatic but I'll keep this going:
How many of you utilize your cage IF your lathe came with one, or is it hanging on the wall?
I use mine. It has certainly saved me from some pain when the bark from Norfolk pine comes off in sheets. As mentioned, most faceshields won't save you from trauma, unless using riot gear. I always try to use it, especially when roughing, I do admit, I don't always use it. I've had 2 occasions where something unstable did blow up or fly off. I'm glad I had the cage down. Also when the speed goes way up, the cage comes down. The AAW magazine had a short article, if you paint the guard flat black, it cuts the reflection down a LOT, and it's much easier to see "through" the guard. I did paint mine and it does help.
Yeah, I know it's a PITA to use, gets in the way, hard to see through, all of that. I drape an old towel over the back of the cage and let it catch all the CA and debris flying off the wood. That helps keep your shop clean. Well, clean-er.
Let's be safe. I want to turn for another couple decades. It takes but a second to get a trip to the ER. No flames please. Just my $0.02.
In Memoriam
There are few (no?) machines in a woodworking shop that cannot maim or kill the operator under certain circumstances. I had a forum friend tell about watching a man bleed to death in a cabinet shop when a piece of a router bit broke off and severed his femoral artery. While the frequency of wood lathe-related deaths may be unknown, it is a fact that they have occurred. Timber fallers die every year from chainsaw related incidents. Most of the time it's the tree that kills them but the saw does, too.
My position is that if you don't understand and accept the risks or if you are scared of your machines, you have no business in a woodshop. Turning and woodworking is personal decision and like someone else stated earlier in this thread, we are all responsible for our own safety.
Me, I'm hoping to be knocked stone, cold dead by an exploding bowl...when I'm 100 years old.
Cody
Logmaster LM-1 sawmill, 30 hp Kioti tractor w/ FEL, Stihl 290 chainsaw, 300 bf cap. Solar Kiln
[OP]
Contributor
Russell Neyman.
Writer - Woodworker - Historian
Instructor: The Woodturning Experience
Puget Sound, Washington State
"Outside of a dog, there's nothing better than a good book; inside of a dog it's too dark to read."
Moderator
Chainsaws: The best education I've found is a little book titled "The Good Woodcutter's Guide". I don't remember the author's name but he cut wood for a living and explained the ins and outs of the business. (a hard business!) He had a lot of information on chainsaw use and safety with descriptions of lots of ways to get hurt, hurt bad, and killed. Like anything, we often don't know to protect against hazards that we have never heard of, let alone imagined. Many times since I've started taking down a tree or cutting up something and comments from that book caused me to stop and do something else.
Safety equipment: I cringe when I see someone, usually a "professional", using a chainsaw without eye, ear, and head protection. Idiots. And I have NEVER seen a treecutter use chaps. I wear mine religiously after I found a small cut one day that had pulled some of the kevlar fibers out. I have two of the Stihl combination hard hats with built-in ear and eye protection and use them every time.
One thing about kickback: we can know about it and guard against getting the chain in kickback positions, but one might not be obvious: cutting a piece of log on the ground that has other logs and limbs around it. The section you are concentrating on may be fine, but what can get you is if the tip of the chainsaw touches another section or limb behind the log, hidden from view. Kickback! Since I read that I know to check for clearance of hidden obstructions every time.
A neighbor was felling a tree in his woods like he had done for 50 years. He was very careful. He had his plan, had a clear exit, then made his cuts and retreated. What got him was when the tree bumped another tree which jostled a third tree he was standing behind. A dead limb, a "widow maker", broke loose and put him on the ground. After seventeen stitches in his head at the emergency room and weeks of rest he was back to almost normal. Failure: not carefully examining the site and no hard hat.
A young friend of mine was killed when trimming branches with a HAND saw. He was climbing down the tree when it split at a crotch and crushed him. Would a more careful examination of the tree have prevented this? I don't know.
When I bought this farm and got a tractor I read everything I could on how to get hurt and killed by a tractor. There are a surprising number of ways I never thought of and I'll bet most other tractor users have not. If anyone is interested I can list some. The more you know, the more you can guard against. That's why I love to find discussions like this since I always learn something. Can't be too careful!
JKJ
Member
Honestly having a bit of fear when it comes to power tools is not a bad thing. If, that fear translates into respect. In forty some years of carpentry and cabinet building I've seen guys maim themselves in many different ways. Lack of respect leads to lack of attention. Throw in being in a hurry otherwise known as lack of patience and all kinds of mayhem can ensue.
Member
I am so glad to hear you say that Bruce. I have 32 years in wood window and door manufacturing and carpentry. I always say maintain 10% fear of the tool you're using because it will make you ask yourself if what you are about to do safe. That is awareness and respect for the equipment.
Member
Russell,Originally Posted by Russell Neyman
Thank you for spreading the safety message. It is always healthy to discuss how we view safety while using the lathe and to gain a wide range of views. Thankyou for quoting parts of my posts from SMC verbatim in your blog, however if you are going to quote another’s views please at least quote them accurately and do your research.
I would like to clarify a few matters I do not live in the USA I’m an Aussie living in tropical FNQ. I think you may have me confused with a namesake motor sport and wine enthusiast in the USA.
I certainly do not work in the “industrial safety field.” However I do have 35 years experience as a field surveyor often working in very remote areas under modern health and safety legislation. I have been working with wood from my earliest memories and have a very healthy survival instinct at work and in my shed.
“Geoff makes a couple of good points, but I take exception to his warning that what we do is more dangerous than, say, using a table saw or climbing a ladder.”
“The one death that Geoff was able to cite specifically involved a woman who was using a metal lathe and her hair somehow became entangled in the machine.”
I think you have misunderstood my message and have selectively done so to reinforce your own opinions. My comments, at post #9 among a number of my observations from the 2002 UK HASS & LASS and other research were,
“The most significant messages from the research on DIY injury relevant to wood lathes are,
- Falls from ladders kill far more DIYer’s than all other causes of death associated with DIY combined,
- Traumatic brain injuries are very significant proportional to the numbers of injuries to wood turners (and to older persons), and in terms of hospitalization time.
- the wood lathe is by far the most likely machine in a wood shop to actually be involved in the death of a wood worker. Other machines maim but don’t knock people unconscious.
- the cause of death at the lathe usually involves working alone, an unstable work piece, an oops moment, a flying object with significant mass & velocity, severe head injury, being rendered incapable of getting assistance, then being undiscovered for some time”
I did cite 4 reported deaths from “wood lathes.” Broad details are East Waterdown Canada 2009, Griffith Australia (never reported in the press) 2012, Yale 2011 & a Mid-South Woodturners Guild turner also in 2011. Unfortunately the URL’s to the original news links are no longer active for the Waterdown article. Contact Mike Maffitt at Mid-South Woodturners (an AAW Chapter) about the tragic loss of one of their own. http://www.midsouthwoodturners.com/N...s/0611talk.pdf
“Some recent confirmed deaths at the wood lathe I have found are Aust in Dec 2012; USA x 2 Apr & May 2011; Canada July 2009.”
You are partially correct as initially one death was reported at a “wood lathe” but was later mentioned to be a metal lathe. However the important message from the young lady’s unfortunate demise is the mechanism of death, working alone and entanglement in the lathe, inaccessible power switch & the lack of an emergency switch, a scenario which can easily occur at the wood lathe.
My comments about injuries are based upon review of formal research into DIY and hobby injuries and are not based upon gut feeling, assumptions and anecdotal evidence. I am always open to others views and very much appreciate information about injury events or leads about formal research papers & articles. You would be surprised at how embarrassed turners are to report injuries.
Perhaps my most significant comment made also in post #9 (now #10???) is,
“The good news much of this is very avoidable using prudent and proven “safe turning techniques.”
You are most welcome to obtain and read my full views on wood turning safety published in a six part series in UK “Woodturning” issues 252 to 257. My independent views just happen to significantly align with the AAW’s board members policy. The AAW’s Secretary & safety advocate Rob Wallace was attempting to obtain permission from the copyright license owner to use them on the AAW site.
I would sincerely appreciate you correcting your biased reporting of my comments from this forum in your column at https://turnabouts.wordpress.com/201...conversations/
ps I feel there is something radically wrong with SMC and how it is sequencing reply posts in this thread.
Last edited by Geoff Whaling; 04-21-2015 at 6:08 PM.
[OP]
Contributor
Dale and Bruce, that's the trick, isn't it: to maintain respect for the machine, awareness of possible consequences, yet assertiveness to maintain control.
[OP]
Contributor
Geoff, just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean they're "biased." And I didn't mean to single you out as the villain in this discussion; you were simply the most vocal about what an incredibly dangerous vocation woodturning has become. Honestly, given your cries of gloom and doom, I don't know how anyone would ever take up the craft! And if you read my full essay, you'll see that I fully embrace common sense and most of the safe practices you do. In fact, your observation about the hazards of working alone led me to add the last guideline that suggested keeping the door open and carrying a phone.
The biggest disagreement that I and others have with your posting is the rather vague statement that "one or two" deaths occur at the lathe each year. That appears to be a guess, and you're essentially saying that there are all sorts of deaths (not injuries) that go unreported. I find that statistic hard to believe and harder to document, but I quoted you anyway. Perhaps you might modify your statement to say, "There have been at least X wood lathe deaths reported over the last X years."
I will, however, correct the statement that assumed that you were a "safety professional". If there are other corrections needed, please note them specifically and send me a personal message. I don't think it's practical to quote chapter and verse every single statement and link you've provided, but I will consider it.
What I attempted to do in writing my essay and initiating this Sawmill Creek discussion on woodturning safety is present a reasonable dialogue about something about which too many of us are in denial.
Russell Neyman.
Writer - Woodworker - Historian
Instructor: The Woodturning Experience
Puget Sound, Washington State
"Outside of a dog, there's nothing better than a good book; inside of a dog it's too dark to read."
Member
Home shops are by their very nature unregulated environments. Most are not even known to exist. I took a quick look at something that is better documented, mainly because it costs insurance companies millions a year. The below is a little information from two states and an "initiative"
Judging by the other numbers I would say the number the initiative is using is very conservative. However, at a bare minimum, over ten people a month on average are killed by farm tractors in the US. Worldwide the numbers are truly horrendous in some countries. But let's stick with the ten or twelve people a month number. How many of those deaths are the members of this forum aware of? How many can you find reported? Farm deaths are much bigger news than home workshop deaths because of the insurance costs and a powerful farm lobby. Still I would bet any of us without a special interest in farm tractor deaths don't notice ten news articles a year about them, much less ten a month!
Home workshop deaths aren't news and most deaths in a home shop aren't documented as to why they happen. We don't have a clue what the number of lathe related deaths or turning related deaths are, or major injuries. There isn't any real interest in this information except from us.
Hu
(Included text)
From 2003 through 2010, 74 farm operators and workers inIowa died from tractor-related injuries. Most of these fatalities wereassociated with tractors that overturned on the farm or roadway, where thetractor did not have ROPS to prevent the operator from being pinned under orthrown from the tractor.(note that this is only rollover injuries on tractorswithout ROPS(Roll over protection, Hu) my error, this is all tractor related deaths despite the article being about deaths without ROPS.
(end included text)
[ Not stated is that people rarely wear seatbelts on atractor and the ROPS itself is a major cause of injury or death when no seatbelt is worn. Also there are other tractor related deaths besides rollovers.Hu]
(Included text)
From 1971 to 1981, a study to characterize Georgia deathsassociated with farm-tractor accidents was undertaken as a basis for developingpreventive recommendations. For each death certificate listing a farm-tractoraccident as the cause or contributing cause of death, information wasabstracted concerning the characteristics of the victim and the accident. Twohundred two tractor-associated fatalities occurred in Georgia during the studyperiod.
(end included text)
(Included text)
Farm tractors accounted for the deaths of 2,165 farm between1992 and 2001.
The most common type of tractor accident is roll overs—TheU.S. Department of Labor (USDL) reports that 44% of farm accidents are due totractor roll overs.
The National Agricultural Tractor Safety Initiative reportsthat tractors cause about 130 deaths annually, or half of all farm workerfatalities.
(end included text)
Last edited by hu lowery; 04-22-2015 at 2:52 AM.
Member
I'm just very attached to my fingers and toes and at this point in my life I don't need to go looking for more pain.
Don't get me wrong. I'm not a poster boy for tool safety. My only point is to be aware of where you are and what you are doing.
The other day I was doing some turning and my dogs started barking. My concentration got scattered, got a catch, the tool jumped and caught a bit of flesh between it and the tool rest. Just a reminder.
Pay attention!
Contributor
I'm with Bruce here. I'm very respectful of the tools in my shop. Only had a few brushes with major accidents in the past 40 years, mostly try to keep aware of what I'm doing but mainly keep aware of the potential for problems with the tool I'm using. I not only love my fingers and toes, I don't know what I'd do without my eyes...the faceshield gets a lot of use.
Member
Russell,
I accept your explanation, no flame war here, just rational discussion. I’ve been labelled a “naysayer” and "chicken little" many times. It is difficult to communicate the safety message and inform turners about hazards & risk without being labelled. Turners simply refuse to acknowledge that wood turning can be hazardous plus they are quite casual about reducing risk. Perhaps I am sensitive to others distorting my views.
I have no desire or motive to overstate the number of injuries or deaths in woodturning, just a desire to reduce risk and injuries. I sincerely hope my estimate of lathe deaths is overstated at 1-2 deaths per year. Being alarmist affects credibility. However I do wonder why many turners are in denial and what is the benefit or motive for grossly understating risk.
Hu makes a good point with his tractor example & about the reporting of deaths in home workshops. No newspaper report - can't be found by Google searches. Suicides, are another example.
Some background,
I wrote my safety articles in mid 2010, note the year – well before two female turners were killed, & before Lynne Yamaguchi was injured in 2012. I often ask myself “What if?”
I researched data including USA Consumer Product Safety Commission (CPSC) National Electronic Injury Surveillance System (NEISS) data, perhaps the most comprehensive dataset available in the world, a statistical sample of ED presentations from 100 US hospitals. In a 205 page coding manual there is one code for “lathes, power – 0805,” no differentiation between wood or metal, fifteen codes for saws.
I reviewed the data again prior to publication in 2013. Yes I’m persistent & Mark Baker took a huge commercial risk! Comprehensive, searches using the NEISS query function and review of 100’s of MB of spreadsheets revealed only one injury, no deaths, attributed to 0805 in the 2011, 2012 & 2013 years. This is quite contrary to Australian, UK and Canadian research estimates. The CPSC NEISS national estimates for table saw injuries are around 35 to 40k pa which are generally cited.
In early 2013 I exchanged emails with J. Lee Annest, Chief, Statistics, National Center for Injury Prevention and Control in the USA about concerns I had about my search methodology. I had found only one recorded presentation, no deaths, yet I had irrefutable proof of the death of two females at a “lathe, power” in 2011. He gave me searching tips, and acknowledged that many wood turning related injuries are perhaps recorded as "other" however no change in the search result. Few in the wider community know what wood turning or a lathe is. This is a NEISS coding problem that potentially affects recording of onsite deaths or DOA’s too.
The obvious conclusion from the NEISS data is that “lathes, power” are extremely safe and US wood turners are exceptionally safe - no deaths, one injury attributed to code 0805 in three years. Please don’t quote that out of context as it would be grossly irresponsible to spread that message given the two confirmed deaths in the USA at a “lathe, power” in 2011. So I have had to rely heavily upon UK & Australian research.
Anecdotal evidence from a woodturning mate and a work colleague’s spouse indicate that their ortho & other teams are quite busy repairing nasty hand injuries and worse, some from lathes. Both work in Emergency Department’s in two of our large regional hospitals in NQ. Lathe injuries appear in the total presentations / admissions to hospital but the numbers are very low compared to angle grinder, table & circular saw and hobby knife injuries. Scalping and de-gloving injuries from a lathe (metal & wood) are also relatively common in terms of lathe injuries but very low in terms of total admissions. Many in the wood turning community believe that injuries in terms of the numbers of wood turners are significant, particularly the high potential for significant head injuries. But we are sounding like "chicken little" again.
I'm truly thankful that people like yourself are discussing safety and keeping it topical, and are sharing others views as well as their own, quite commendable really. Please keep reinforcing the – stay safe message.
Last edited by Geoff Whaling; 04-22-2015 at 5:58 PM.
[OP]
Contributor
So -- Geoff and others -- what's the "risk/reward" level you use? What do you consider risky but you do anyway because it pleases you or it makes your loved ones smile? What's YOUR bottom line? Why are you a woodturner if you consider this a threat to your life?
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