Preferred crosscut tenon saw TPI?

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

I finally used my Lee Valley gift certificate and picked up the large tenon saw, in rip cut. I'm really liking it so far. It's a bit spoiling for me; I honestly mostly cut anything bigger than dovetails that's rip cut in hardwood with a panel saw.

Anyway, I'm contemplating picking up the x-cut model. For precision cross cuts, I have a short (maybe 16"?) Disston mitre box saw; it works well if you aren't trying to lift the whole weight. It's actually found more use than I thought, but the weight and thickness are too much for a saw not in a box.

Anyway - I'm really liking the 9 TPI of the rip saw; and I'm almost thinking a crosscut saw that same tooth count might be nicer than the finer 12 point cross cut Lee Valley sells. I think I might rather pick up another rip saw and file it crosscut.

Anyone have any thoughts?

I've already got an 11 point x-cut panel saw, and a 14 point carcass saw, I feel like I'd like something a little more aggressive than those in a tenon saw, but maybe I'm misguided.

[ken hatch]

Joshua,

For its 16" saw Bad Axe recommends 12ppi for rip and 11ppi for x-cut. That translates to 11tpi and 10tpi respectively. You would be in the ball park with re-filing the 9TPI rip to x-cut and it would be a heck of a lot easier than re-toothing a saw plate. Go for it and let us know how it works out.

BTW, I have the Veritus large tenon saw in both x-cut and rip, each is a pretty good saw, you might want to try the x-cut one first to see if it is aggressive enough. It might surprise.

ken

[Winton Applegate]

I'm really liking the 9 TPI of the rip saw; and I'm almost thinking a crosscut saw that same tooth count might be nice

I'm with ya"
I'm rooting for you.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

Given the really relaxed rake on LV saws (I use 0 to 4 or 5 degrees on most rip saws, the LV saw comes at 14), perhaps I'll just file what I've got as cross cut and see if I like it. I can always go back easily enough, and if I like it, get another rip saw.

I feel like for a saw like this, if it's a show surface, I'm probably going to shoot the edge, anyway. If it's not show, I just need clean and not perfect, and that comes from marking before hand, not the saw cut. Maybe this is just me.

[Winton Applegate]

It seems to me the coarser teeth aren't going to beat up the end any more than a finer saw as long as it is knifed.
The coarser teeth are just going to be more grabby when up on the narrow edge of the tenon so I supose they normally put on finer teeth that will cut well there and let the little shallow teeth load up and cut slow for the wide face.
basssss akwards if you ask me but there you are.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

It seems to me the coarser teeth aren't going to beat up the end any more than a finer saw as long as it is knifed.
.

That was my thought above, exactly. Honestly, though they call these "tenon" saws, in the cross cut parts of the tenons I make, I'm more likely to reach for a dozuki or a smaller western saw; I imagine this saw for cross cuts a little smaller than when I'd reach for my panel saw, or when I want a hair more accuracy- my 11 point panel saw, I guess maybe the rake is aggressive, it works great at 45 to the board, but not as great perpendicular, but I don't want to change it.

[Ron Bontz]

Just a couple of pennies worth. Maybe.
Different types of woods a side.
An 8 or 9ppi xcut on a panel saw leaves a pretty respectable finish, IMO. My 20" panel saws I made are 8ppi x 15*R x 20 or 25* fleam and one rip. I also have a 24" in the shop that is 11ppi x cut with the same rake and fleam. Smoother cut and the extra stroke length help make up for the smaller teeth. 12ppi smoother yet, of course. So it really just comes down to preference and whether you want to use your shooter for finished ends or not. You can also decrease the tear out, simply by easing up on the cut and letting the saw glide a little more. ( if that makes any sense ). Best wishes.

[Warren Mickley]

I have used only rip sharpening for all my back saws (tenon, carcase, sash,dovetail) for forty years. I use all of them for both rip and crosscut. I think you could get a good idea of how you would like a 10 point crosscut tenon saw by just trying your rip tenon saw for crosscut.

[Warren Mickley]

Here are some more thoughts. The tenon saw in the Seaton chest (1796) is 19 inches long, has 10 teeth to the inch and is filed with a very slight angle to the blade (very slightly crosscut). All the other back saws and the hand saws are filed straight across rip.

Here is a snippet from Nicholson (1812)
Nicholson tenon saw.png

[Reinis Kanders]

From all my Veritas saws I like their crosscut tenon saw the least. It is very grabby especially in softer woods, my sawing has definitely improved over the last year or two, so I actually tested that saw again to see if my opinion has changed, but it was still the same. I probably should do some filing on it.
I often use 12 ppi Disston D-23 regular 26 inch saw as a panel saw and that saw works much better.

I do like Veritas rip tenon saw, I recently did some half laps with it and they were fine off the saw.

[Jim Matthews]

My go-to Orsa crosscut saw is full length, 8 tpi.

Finer than that, and all my saws are filed rip.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

Jim and Warren are spot-on. (imagine that!) Without knifing, the cut is pretty rough on the backside with the saw at 45 degrees to the work, knifing cleans it up acceptably. But with the cuts in question that I want to do with this saw, with the saw parallel to the work, if the board is backed by something, gets me exactly what I want. Knifing on the show face is more just to make the initial starting of the cut smoother as needed. Given that I tend to use my Japanese saws based on tooth count rather than geometry when selecting a saw or side of a ryoba to use, I don't know why this didn't occur to me. I guess I was just looking for an excuse to buy more tools. Thanks for talking some sense into me guys. I think that old Disston is probably going on eBay now. I won't give up my Disston panel saws, but this fat-plated backsaw just lost it's excuse for being in my shop.