Paperweight bases

[Jerry Lawrence]

As a woodworker who occasionally dabbles in turning for fun, I am inevitably approached by friends who think that just because I have a wood shop, I can make whatever they need. Well, chances are, I can probably figure out how to make many of the items they want, and most times I relish the chance to experiment and learn new techniques (read: "make new mistakes") on new projects. Usually it's not an issue because most times it's just something fun for a friend or maybe a gift item etc. and I can work on it in my spare time and we work out a friendly price.
However, the problem I ran into recently was a glass-blower friend, who wanted me to turn some bases to go with his glass paperweights (about 3" spheres +/-). Problem #1: I have a small metal lathe, not a wood lathe. I do turn wood on it with the mounted tools, (and have posted a few pics of my projects here in the past), so I've learned some tricks to making decent curves etc., but this type of turning is definitely not as efficient as turning with hand tools on a good wood lathe. That leads into problem # 2: He is buying these bases as part of his business. This is his lively-hood, blowing glass and selling his glass art. Therefore, he needs to buy them at a reasonable price. Problem #3: He is on a deadline. This means taking time out of my work schedule to make the bases for him on his timeline.
OK....now that you have the long-winded back story.....here's where I need your input. How would you approach pricing on this type of project. I don't feel right about charging him for my learning curve and mistakes made along the way, however, I don't particularly want to just eat my time that I would normally be using in my own business. I'm sure a more experienced turner with better equipment and skills, could make these in no time at all, but even after I had gotten the process down pretty well with the limited practice time I had, the best I could do was about 1 1/2 hours each, start to finish. I'll admit, a large part of that time is sanding and finishing (which is just a wax compound and buff). At that amount of time, plus materials (most of them were, in whole or part, cocobolo, which as you all know, is NOT cheap!) I should be getting at least $40 each. The wood blanks were 3 X 3 X 2 1/2" to start. When I look at the finished product, I just have a hard time seeing something worth $40. I guess right now it's not a terribly big issue, as these first ones are to "test the waters" so to speak. But if the reaction is good in the paperweight collectors circles (yes, there really is such a thing!), then he may want me to make more, and on a more regular basis, so I have to make it financially feasible.
Anyway.....sorry for the long post....but what are your thoughts? I'm attaching a few pics of the bases so you can maybe judge how long you think one of you talented turners would take to crank out these items, and how much you think that work would be worth in $! Who knows, maybe I'll find out it's worth it to sub out the work to one of you !
First pic, solid cocobolo, second pic, 2 soapstone and wood combos, middle base is solid soapstone (top lined with felt, looks a little uneven because of it), third pic is base with 3" paperweight on it. Thanks in advance for your advice!
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[Dan Hintz]

IMO, there are a couple of issues involved here:
1) Unless you market yourself as R&D, you generally can't charge for learning something new. You can try to price accordingly, but if it's more than a one-off, customers will usually find someone less expensive over the long run. Consider this a learning experience and eat the cost of R&D.

2) If you're using the wrong equipment (i.e., metal lathe versus wood lathe) and it slows you down, that's not the customer's fault, and they shouldn't be penalized for it. you need to either use the correct equipment, or get more efficient using the wrong equipment. You are competing against other turners out there who WILL use the correct equipment and charge accordingly for their time.

An experienced turner would likely crank out those bases at <5 minutes a piece (sanding/finishing not included, but add another 5 minutes or so for that). In bulk, I would probably expect to pay no more than about $20/each (this price does not take material into account), considering they are still somewhat custom. Consider if these were coming from a shop in China, they'd probably be <$5/each.

If you can get your time down to 15-20 minutes a piece, that would still be $60-$80/hr, which is a decent enough rate. Consider getting a pattern duplicator for your lathe. Once you have a few designs set up, you could recreate one in 2-3 minutes. If you get your sanding time down and spray your finish, I could see these being made in under 10 minutes each without too much struggle.

Other turners may disagree...

BTW, what are the ones in the middle pic? It looks like a faux granite finish. The left-most pair are nice... not sure I like the light ring on the right-most one.

[Thom Sturgill]

First - I like the bead better than the pointed feature and I like the straight soapstone better than the mix (heresy, I know). One of my club's turners did some of these for globes she had collected, so I am aware of the 'collect-ability'.

You are dealing with custom art work, and people that are buying will not want mass produced pieces, although the display is maybe not so important to most. I would have to assume that he is aware that he can buy mass produced, duplicated work and is not looking for that, and that the bases are options he wants to offer because he's been asked for them.

The soapstone is something few turners would produce, so I would price it a little higher and likewise for exotic woods, but remember that he is selling HIS art and does not want the base to overwhelm the paperweight visually, so he might prefer plainer woods like maple and cherry and a range of prices.

And I have to agree with Dan. As an experienced turner, those are 15 minute projects for the plainer ones, half hour if I got really fancy and did something like embedding silver/brass/whatever rod so that it forms a row of dots, or cut and filled a groove with stone. Embellishment of this sort would draw your eye away from the glasswork and not be as desirable to the other artist.

[John Keeton]

Adding to the previous comments, I would approach this by using long spindle stock and turning several units, each with a tenon permitting it to be mounted for cupping the top. Form the edge of the base and the edge of the cup of each. Sand and finish all of them before separating. Partially part these and then saw off the individual units. Mount each one, cup the top, finish the cup. Part off and glue felt to the bottom. I would think one could do a dozen in an hour or so. Domestic 3" spindle stock is relatively inexpensive in this area - walnut, cherry, ash or maple.

[John K Jordan]

Jerry, I am hardly a production turner but do turn in my spare time between finishing my shop and running the farm. (Not much spare time this time of year!) This is a hobby so I usually give things away but on occasion do sell things, mostly spindle turnings. I've faced the same problem about pricing. I considered several things:

- The time and effort the turning takes and how much my time is worth per hour. I do not consider the time it takes to build fixtures or figure out how to go about the turning.
- The cost of the materials. Cocobolo is far more expensive than the cherry or maple from my own trees.
- Is the turning made to spread happiness or is it intended to make money for the client?
- Volume. Three will be more each than thirty.
- How big of hurry is the client. If the schedule is relaxed I can make things as I find time. If here is a big rush, I have to put off other things and work late, and charge more.

I don't have any problem charging and getting $40 for a custom turning. If that is too much, they can get it done elsewhere. I get $25 to $60 each for magic wands - sold $1750 worth once in 3 hours during a Harry Potter book release. One woman paid $75 each for a couple of dozen specialized spindle turnings and was thrilled. I make drop spindles for fiber spinning that a friend wants to sell if I can find time to make them - she thinks she can get $40-$75 each for them.

If you hope for repeat business don't start off selling too cheaply - that tends to "lock" in the price. And people generally value something less that they get for cheap.

Also, I agree with the comment to not make the bases too fancy in design, color, or figure to avoid visual confusion and detracting from the artwork.

JKJ

[Pat Scott]

Doing a dozen of these in an hour means only spending 5 minutes per base. If that's what you're going to shoot for, don't get frustrated when it takes you longer than that. You'd need to crank out one right after the other to get your movements and steps down. Repetition, repetition, repetition. Now you're a production turner.

If your friend wants to start including your base with his globes, any idea how many bases we're talking about? 100 a week? 100 a month? Something to consider before you say yes, because it could turn into a 2nd job for you. You said you occasionally dabble for fun, do you have the time to do more than that? If not, then you might want to tell your friend that you could make 5 a week (or something like that) to avoid any deadlines or pressure from him.

I agree that you can't really charge him for your learning curve. I think $40 per base is too much. You didn't say what he sells his globes for, but once he pays you $40 for the base and then adds a markup, his end product price might be way out there. Have you asked him what he wants to pay? I'm sure he has a number in mind that he's willing to pay.

I like the all wood bases. I've never turned soapstone but I saw someone demo it years ago. If I remember right isn't it like turning stone? Lots of dust, dulls your tools quickly, etc. For speed I would stick with all wood. Also what if you don't do the bead in the middle? That would cut down on time making it and sanding. Just one fluid curve from top to bottom. Like others have said, you don't want the base to overpower the globe. Keep it simple is the only way to make any money on it.

[Jerry Lawrence]

Thanks, all, for the feedback and info! I guess I was looking for input on what an experienced turner with the right equipment could do these for. However, since he came to me and wanted each of them custom and different, he knew from the start that I wasn't that experienced guy..lol. When a guy's opening line is "I know this isn't what you do, but since you do have a lathe...." you've gotta figure he understands there's a learning curve there..lol Also, I knew going in that I wasn't really going to get paid for my time and that learning curve, but was interested to learn what kind of time-frame was reasonable in a normal 'custom' situation.

To answer a few individual issues brought up in your answers.....

Dan Hintz.... the bases in the middle pic are soapstone (as labeled) not a faux finish. When you say an experienced turner could crank these out in less than five minutes...whoa! I'm assuming you mean JUST the turning part. It takes me longer than that to turn the "cup" part in the top of the base to fit a specific size paperweight (as his globes are all hand-made, they each differ slightly in size also, so I kind of have to make a size range to fit his range). Heck, it takes me longer than five minutes just to pick out the wood, prepare the blank and glue it to the sacrificial turning tenon. Not sure if that's the proper way to do these, but gluing the cocobolo to a piece of cheap scrap allows me to waste less of the expensive wood. I am using mainly cocobolo at his request. As Thom Sturgill correctly noted, he is not interested in getting bases from China, so he knows he has to pay local/custom price. (he sells his hand-blown glasses for $40 each, when you could go to Walmart and get glasses for $1..he knows there's a difference) My actual turning time is still around 15 minutes or so per piece. Sanding time takes too long, because of the tools I use, which are obviously not the right ones..lol. As for using a duplicator...he is definitely looking for each one to be made individually and different.

Thom Sturgill... I agree, and so did he, that the bead is easier on the eye than the point. Then one of his customers said they liked the point better. I also like the solid ones better...wood or stone...the combo ones seem to stop the flow for me. Not to mention that they involve an extra few steps. As I mentioned, the cocobolo was his choice, so cherry and maple are out. The paperweights he makes sell for up to $500.00 each...yes, you read that right!...so I'm not worried about putting out something that will overshadow them, I don't think that's possible. The one in the pic I posted is not one of the more expensive ones, but still goes for around $250.

John Keeton... spindle stock sounds like a great idea if my lathe could handle it..lol. That's the kind of info I was looking for, though, like what would a REAL wood turner do? The other problem is that 3" cocobolo spindle stock would probably be totally cost prohibitive.

John K. Jordan ... I don't have much to add to your comments, those were pretty much all the things that were running through my head too! Basically, this project is approaching/crossing the line between hobby and work. The woodwork I do for income is established and price analyzed, anything else, I consider as blending into the 'hobby' description. However, since this was a last minute request and had a tight timeframe, I had to use work time to do them. That's where the pricing issues came into play, so if he wants more in the future, I'll have a more realistic basis to start from.

Finally, Pat Scott.... His paperweights are handmade and very intricate items, so 5 a week is probably not far off from the real number, so this isn't something that's going to overtake me. $40 per base isn't realistically too much for him to pay, considering the price of some of his work. I just wanted to know what kind of time frame and pricing a real turner would do these for. We talked about price, and have pretty much agreed that since he is a good friend, as long as I get reimbursed for materials now, we could kind of use the reaction of his peers and customers at the "Paperweight Collectors Association" annual convention he is attending (another thing I never would have believed actually exists, but is apparently huge..lol) as a guage of market interest.
As for turning soapstone, it's a breeze...at least with the carbide tipped tools. It does produce a lot of dust, but masks and d/c helps with that. It is pretty soft, and sands way more easily than any wood I turn. The stone actually takes less time turning and sanding. Also, I live close to Vermont Soapstone company, which allows people to pick their scrap pile for free!

Sorry for the extra long book again...if anyone's made it this far...and thanks again for the info and insight! I don't know if it solved my problems, but at least now I have some input from the experts!

Here's a pic of one of his more expensive pieces set on an unfinished base (was size testing), and one on the soapstone/wood base. The rose is inside the globe, and the facets multiply the view. Also, the radial cuts are not in each facet, but are on the outside bottom of the piece, and just picked up visually by the facets.
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[Pat Scott]

Beautiful paperweights! If your friend gets $250 to $500 for them, then I agree $40 for the base is not out of line, especially since you have to buy the cocobolo. Sounds like soapstone is a bonus if it cuts and sands that easy, and it's free to boot!

I also think 15 minutes+ per base is more like it. Even if you took 30 minutes start to finish, that's still $80 an hour which ain't too shabby. Heck, take an hour for each one and don't feel guilty at all. For as much as he gets for the paperweights, I would want to make sure the base is done equally well and complements the paperweight. Sounds like a fun collaboration.

[Steve Peterson]

Jerry,

Are you turning these on your metal lathe using carbide tips and the crank handles? It would be much faster to use handheld tools over a traditional woodworking tool rest. I am not sure if this is safe to do by adding a tool rest to a metal lathe and using it as a woodworking lathe. It seems possible, but you will end up with lots of wood dust all over the greased surfaces. A $200 woodworking lathe from Craigslist might be desirable if you want to make lots of them.

If you are now down to 15 minutes for shaping, I would guess that 5 minutes each is possible after a few more. Add a few minutes for sanding and a few minutes for a friction polish and you are still looking at 10-15 minutes each if you are making them in bulk. Assume at least $5 for material, sandpaper, and finishing. I would try to price them at around $20-25 each. Maybe add an additional $5 for cocobolo or other exotic wood.

I hope I don't get chastised for saying this on a woodworking forum, but I really like the look of the soapstone holder. It really shines next to the glass.

Steve

[Dan Hintz]

Dan Hintz.... the bases in the middle pic are soapstone (as labeled) not a faux finish. When you say an experienced turner could crank these out in less than five minutes...whoa! I'm assuming you mean JUST the turning part. It takes me longer than that to turn the "cup" part in the top of the base to fit a specific size paperweight (as his globes are all hand-made, they each differ slightly in size also, so I kind of have to make a size range to fit his range). Heck, it takes me longer than five minutes just to pick out the wood, prepare the blank and glue it to the sacrificial turning tenon. Not sure if that's the proper way to do these, but gluing the cocobolo to a piece of cheap scrap allows me to waste less of the expensive wood. I am using mainly cocobolo at his request. As Thom Sturgill correctly noted, he is not interested in getting bases from China, so he knows he has to pay local/custom price. (he sells his hand-blown glasses for $40 each, when you could go to Walmart and get glasses for $1..he knows there's a difference) My actual turning time is still around 15 minutes or so per piece. Sanding time takes too long, because of the tools I use, which are obviously not the right ones..lol. As for using a duplicator...he is definitely looking for each one to be made individually and different.

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After seeing others post, I recognize the soapstone now... but even after reading your first post a second time I didn't see mention of it. I'm really going blind.

I tried to clarify my comments earlier, but yes, the 5 minutes I mentioned would be turning time only. Finishing would likely be 5 minutes, too, give or take. A production turner will crank through those with a skew and get a pretty darn smooth finish straight off of the lathe.

His work is really nice, so they deserve a nice base. As others have said, given the material of choice, I don't think $40/base out the door is a bad price. The $20/base estimate I mentioned earlier was just for the production level item, assuming cheap turning stock.

[Len Mullin]

Jerry, personally, what I think you should do, is treat this as it should be treated. It's a business proposition, treat it that way. Now is not the time to be thinking of friendships, now is the time to come up with the price you expect to get, and how and when you will be paid for your product. Yes, his work should be the main feature of the display, but, that does not mean that your work should be neglected all together. Afterall, the base is handmade of expensive wood, or soapstone, and it's what helps make the ball look so presentable. So, I think that you should be getting some credit for the display looking so nice, otherwise let him use a tin can. By starting out the way your are, your just setting yourself up for a lot of arguments. Get it on paper, that way, if there is a disagreement you have something to fall back on. Things like, price, quantity, time constraints, and credit for your work, along with some loyalty to you as his +1 turner are just a few things that should be agreed to and put to paper with both people signing thew agreement. You may not have been turning for a long time, but, that doesn't matter, your turning now. And your up for the job, so, please don't under price your work. When you do, your hurting the rest of us turners who like to make a few bucks also. I don't see anything wrong with charging $40-$45 per base, and I think that you should start off at that price. Your friend will probably be raising his prices to cover the cost of the bases, by charging him the 40-45 dollars starting out he'll only have to do the mark-up once. In the past, I've found that it's a lot easier to agree on price before starting out, then it is to agree to a price mark-up once the price is set. So, for this I think you should forget about the friendship, and just worry about making a deal that is right for yourself. Oh yeah, get something to sign your work with, so that it looks to be professionally done. And make sure you put your mark on each piece, so that there's no confusion on who made it.
Len