Countersinks.....

[David Ragan]

Please observe the picture:

DSCN0440.JPG

What's the deal....I have them, but don't really understand the diffo.

My guess is that
-one the left, gives a better finish....is harder to start, though
-middle one, easier to start-and you can sharpen easily, but finish is rougher.
-on the right, as the pkg says is used for wood, plastic, metal

the one on the left--you have to have your initial shank hole drilled first so it will bite, right? Sharpen with ceramic rod through the middle?

I will admit that most of the time, I countersink first, then drill my hole. Is that the correct way to do it?

I also have the all in one type, not pictured here. Is it best always?

[John McClanahan]

The one on the left will not chatter when countersinking an existing hole, or so I have been told.


John

[Phil Thien]

The one on the left will not chatter when countersinking an existing hole, or so I have been told.


John

Yep, they give you the smoothest countersink.

They require you drill the hole, first. I always do anyhow. I have several of the one on the left with pilots for 1/4, 5/16, and 3/8". So if I'm countersinking a larger hole, I get perfect concentricity.

The one in the middle I won't even use, the chatter is typically so bad that the result looks like garbage.

[Bob Hoffmann]

I never even considered using a counter sink first! It seems counter-intuitive to me. Granted that the counter sunk hole will center the drill, but it seems like a counter sink would have more of a tendency to move off of the spot that you want the hole to be.

Are you doing that with a d\portable drill, or with a drill press? It also seems as though it would take a lot more pressure to get the counter sink to bite without the hole drilled first.

I have a set to drills that have the counter sink attached -- so it is a single operation -- drilling the hole and counter sink in one step. I found that the carbide ones are worth the extra cost.

[Don Jarvie]

I drill the hole then countersink. You could do the opposite if you punch a small hole to guide the bit.

You could use the second bit but you will get a much wider hole. The first bit will give you more control over the size and depth of the hole.

[Frederick Skelly]

The one in the middle I won't even use, the chatter is typically so bad that the result looks like garbage.

I have a one flute that I bought from LV. It has a much wider cone angle and it cuts smoothly. Wonder what the difference is? I use it in a drill press on only moderate speed and assuming I touch up the cutting edge once in a while, it works fine.

I have a hand-held with 8 flutes that cuts far more roughly, probably because I'm not nearly as steady/smooth as the drill press.

I too drill first, then sink.

[ian maybury]

Countersinks much like drills seem to be a bit of morass. Most of the cheaper multi fluted solid metal types sold (e.g. middle type) are designed for metalwork, are typically blunt/incapable of doing a neat job as supplied in cheaper form, are made of something masquerading as HSS (high speed steel) that isn't that wears in no time, and leave a mess. Especially when used with a hand drill where they often chatter and leave a hexagon shaped cone.

Countersinks anyway need to be very accurately aligned vertical to centre accurately on a pre-drilled hole.

I've had very good luck with the carbide tipped adjustable Vario 90 304555 set with HSS G drills (the best brad point i've ever seen - really worth the investment) by Famag listed at the bottom of this page. Not cheap, but great value: https://www.fine-tools.com/bohr5.html There's a variety to do flat bottom/cylindrical countersinks too, and also a combo set. The ones I have look identical, but were branded Colt when bought a few years ago. There's got to be sources in the US…..

They cut clean as a whistle (even in cheap ply), the drill can be replaced with a rod to guarantee centering and alignment on a pre-drilled hole when using a hand drill, very long life between sharpenings and easily re-sharpened with a e.g. a Trend fine diamond credit card slip.

Granlund make excellent sinks for metal working, I've had the smaller three flute HSS variety and found they work and last well on wood. A little care is needed if hand drilling, as they will self feed if they really get going: http://www.granlund.com/main.php?menuId=722 Toolroom quality HSS countersinks in general are often not bad for wood if well made.

The round hole ones work smoothly when well made, but can be hard to get cutting.

Lee valley do a large solid cone steel one with a single cutter that works well - it's very stable. Needs a fair amount of sharpening though...

There's probably lots more that work well. I've never had any luck with the box store varieties though, even when the look the same they generally are made of bubble gum and are not properly sharpened. Never found a hand operated one that cut properly either, but maybe there's high quality well made ones that do.....

[Barry McFadden]

I always use these when I countersink http://www.leevalley.com/US/hardware...=3,41306,41328 drills the hole and countersinks all at the same time...

[Lee Schierer]

The one in the middle I won't even use, the chatter is typically so bad that the result looks like garbage.

The chatter probably isn't the fault of the bit as much as it is caused by free play in the rack and pinion that runs the quill of your drill press up and down. I determined this when I found I could get chatter free counter sinks with my hand drill using the same countersink that would chatter like crazy in my drill press. I also found that I could significantly reduce the chatter on my DP by tightening the position lock that locks the quill at a given height so that it required more effort to lower the quill into the wood.

[Phil Thien]

The chatter probably isn't the fault of the bit as much as it is caused by free play in the rack and pinion that runs the quill of your drill press up and down. I determined this when I found I could get chatter free counter sinks with my hand drill using the same countersink that would chatter like crazy in my drill press. I also found that I could significantly reduce the chatter on my DP by tightening the position lock that locks the quill at a given height so that it required more effort to lower the quill into the wood.

Funny you say that. I was building a router table extension for my table saw and was counter-sinking some holes from the top with a hand drill and one of those middle bits, and experienced terrible chatter.

So I tried one of the bits on the left, chatter was gone. But the concentricity was off on a couple of the eight holes.

So I got the piloted version of the bit on the left, and have been very happy with the results.

[David Ragan]

Countersinks much like drills seem to be a bit of morass. Most of the cheaper multi fluted solid metal types sold (e.g. middle type) are designed for metalwork, are typically blunt/incapable of doing a neat job as supplied in cheaper form, are made of something masquerading as HSS (high speed steel) that isn't that wears in no time, and leave a mess. Especially when used with a hand drill where they often chatter and leave a hexagon shaped cone.

Countersinks anyway need to be very accurately aligned vertical to centre accurately on a pre-drilled hole.

I've had very good luck with the carbide tipped adjustable Vario 90 304555 set with HSS G drills (the best brad point i've ever seen - really worth the investment) by Famag listed at the bottom of this page. Not cheap, but great value: https://www.fine-tools.com/bohr5.html There's a variety to do flat bottom/cylindrical countersinks too, and also a combo set. The ones I have look identical, but were branded Colt when bought a few years ago. There's got to be sources in the US…..

They cut clean as a whistle (even in cheap ply), the drill can be replaced with a rod to guarantee centering and alignment on a pre-drilled hole when using a hand drill, very long life between sharpenings and easily re-sharpened with a e.g. a Trend fine diamond credit card slip.

Granlund make excellent sinks for metal working, I've had the smaller three flute HSS variety and found they work and last well on wood. A little care is needed if hand drilling, as they will self feed if they really get going: http://www.granlund.com/main.php?menuId=722 Toolroom quality HSS countersinks in general are often not bad for wood if well made.

The round hole ones work smoothly when well made, but can be hard to get cutting.

Lee valley do a large solid cone steel one with a single cutter that works well - it's very stable. Needs a fair amount of sharpening though...

There's probably lots more that work well. I've never had any luck with the box store varieties though, even when the look the same they generally are made of bubble gum and are not properly sharpened. Never found a hand operated one that cut properly either, but maybe there's high quality well made ones that do.....

Really nice tools. Wish I had a bigger WW budget

[ian maybury]

One of the issues we seem to run into in woodworking David is that there's a whole layer of cheap and usually Eastern made tools sold especially from the box stores and lower end woodworking places that fundamentally don't work - very well if at all.

$50 sounds like a lot for a good carbide countersink, but when performance, life and re-sharpenability are taken into account they are not expensive. Then there's the feel good factor. The Famag clamp on carbide item is also available without the drills on its own - much cheaper that way as HSS-G brads are very pricey. I wouldn't want to be on where it's sourced as i've seen what looks very like it pop up under a couple of brands lately...

[Mike Chalmers]

I always use these when I countersink http://www.leevalley.com/US/hardware...=3,41306,41328 drills the hole and countersinks all at the same time...

+1 to that. Why two operations when one will do?

[Mike Schuch]

This is the one I use:
dewndw2730.jpg
Drill it, flip it, screw it.

[David Ragan]

One of the issues we seem to run into in woodworking David is that there's a whole layer of cheap and usually Eastern made tools sold especially from the box stores and lower end woodworking places that fundamentally don't work - very well if at all.

$50 sounds like a lot for a good carbide countersink, but when performance, life and re-sharpenability are taken into account they are not expensive. Then there's the feel good factor. The Famag clamp on carbide item is also available without the drills on its own - much cheaper that way as HSS-G brads are very pricey. I wouldn't want to be on where it's sourced as i've seen what looks very like it pop up under a couple of brands lately...

My favorite quote on this issue (from the Brownell's catalog)

“It's unwise to pay too much, but it's worse to pay too little. When
you pay too much, you lose a little money - that's all. When you pay
too little, you sometimes lose everything, because the thing you
bought was incapable of doing the thing it was bought to do. The
common law of business balance prohibits paying a little and getting a
lot - it can't be done. If you deal with the lowest bidder, it is well
to add something for the risk you run, and if you do that you will
have enough to pay for something better.”