Recommendation for a newbie?

[Keith Winter]

Gotta play devil's advocate here...

I'm not understanding how an 80w $35000 Trotec that *may* engrave wood twice as fast as my 80w $4800 Triumph, is a better bargain? If you want any depth at all, I seriously doubt the Trotec will be anywhere close to twice as fast. Superficial, yes, but if you want an 1/8" deep cut, you can only put down an 80w beam so fast to get that done. And while the Trotec will likely be faster, I doubt 2x as fast will happen. I've already proven this to myself with my own machines (my Triumph will engrave wood 3/16" deep more than 3x as fast as my 40w Synrad LS900)

Another factor- I can run FOUR of those 24x16's at one time in my Triumph, vs ONE in the Trotec. This works very well in my situation because I have to keep as many of my 13 machines busy as possible every day. One machine making money running for an hour gives me time to get another machine making money. This may not work if you have one employee per machine. I don't have that luxury. My BIL runs the C2000 and the little ULS laser. Everything else, I do. For me, more machines makes more sense than less but FASTER machines. If you're a one-man-show and want more productivity and have the space, buy a second smaller Chinese machine to run other jobs while the big one is running. And the two machines together will barely cost 1/3 the price of the Trotec.

Finally, as mentioned above, the broken Trotec will cost $5 large to fix. I can replace my whole Triumph for that--

Sorry to sound argumentative, but I've been engraving for 41 years, and have been using lasers for 13 years. As much as I would love a Trotec, I'll never get one because for my needs, it would be a waste of my money. Your needs may vary. But-- the fastest doesn't always win the race...

Wow Kev you're running quite an operation with 13 machines congrats!

in my opinion choosing the right tool for the job is really import especially with your first laser. I do not have a Chinese laser, but I do have 2 trotecs (soon to be 3 with a speedy 400 on order). There is simply no comparison, the quality and support of the Trotec blows away the competition. I just looked at universal, epilogue, and a couple Chinese lasers again last week, what did I do? I bought another Trotec.

Now I will say epilogue was quite nice, but they are not as fast engraving. The Chinese lasers from everything I've read are best for cutting. Not better than the U.S. Machines but yes, a much better value if the majority of what you want to do is cut. You can have 3 or 4 Chinese lasers to the one Trotec / universal / epilogue but you and your team do loose hours when they break, and the learning curve is higher. Not to mention if you engrave like clay is trying to do it's going to take you 2-3 times as long on the Chinese laser and while your machine is busy you cannot take on more jobs. May not be your top concern now, as I read your volume is low, but as you take on more customer and jobs this will become more important.

Kev in my humble opinion you are talking about is apples to oranges to what clay wants. He wants to cut and engrave, you mainly cut I believe? He will have only one machine so when it's down he is 100% down, you have 13 machines, so when one is down you are only 8% down.

Also when you first start learning the laser and have and immediate question to get your job going, U.S. Tech support is a big deal. This fades over time and as you get more experienced, and everyone on here is amazing at answering questions, but we all have slightly different machines. Tech support is still very nice to have for specific machine related questions and issues. Plus when you have one machine and it goes down, you're going to be happy as hell when they overnight you the part and your Trotec rep shows up at the door the next day. Reliability and a three year warranty is worth it's weight in gold at that point. We lost our tube doing the Christmas rush our first year, and this is exactly what happened, we were down less than 36 hours. Had it been longer we would have lost thousands of dollars and hundreds of customers at the most critical time for our business since we only had one machine at that point, we were 100% out of commission. Very happy with how Trotec and Chris our local rep handled that situation in such a timely manner.

Is is there a time and a place for a inexpensive Chinese laser, yes, but I just haven't found that place yet . In all seriousness though I would not go Chinese on your first laser if this is more than a hobby. Maybe your second or third, but not the first one. It doesn't fit what you're trying to do, and having US support is very nice when you need it.

[Keith Winter]

Hey Scott, can I comment on this and ask you to give your input?

This product is more of an "art" piece. Race fans hang it on their wall with pride. Some of that pride comes from the respect for engineering and technology that goes in to race cars, and that engineering & technology is part of the product as it was made with a Robot.

Also, the look & feel of a laser product is, in my opinion, far superior to a UV Printed product. This isn't supposed to be a Poster.

Maybe what you are calling a UV printer is different than the flatbed UV Ink printers I've ran in the past to print signage. Is what you are talking about something different?

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To answer someone else's question, no, Speed isn't going to be a thing for me. I am not going to be pumping out hundreds of these things per week or anything. Getting a good dark burn to create contrast is what is most important to me.

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As to everyone else who has replied, thank you so much. You've given me a lot to consider.

Clay I wouldn't worry about the dark burn when choosing the machine manufacturer, you can get that with any U.S. machine and I think Chinese too if you have enough power. Taking it slightly out of focus will help with the darkening. Your can even darken it with aftermarket products if you want it dark.

[Dave Sheldrake]

If you don't have business license and insurance you can also find yourself in a very uncomfortable position or worse lose your home, savings, etc.

A daily argument I have when people ask me about importing direct from China, I'd go so far as to say I have yet to see a machine come out of China that would pass UK factory safety inspection, every machine that comes in from China that HPC Lasers imports has significant time spent on it to make sure it conforms to UK regulations, everything from safety switches to laser radiation hazard warnings.

So, I'm wondering if folks that post that have experience with this or are repeating what they have read here.

Something wrong with that Matt, DC current tubes don't fire at 1% unless the baseline current has been set too high, it's the nature of DC arc based tubes that they require a minimum current to sustain the arc. Both Beijing EFR and RECI technical department state the minimum strike current for a DC tube when new is 6% with that increasing the 9-12% after the break in period.
Over the years I have owned and used tubes from Gsi, Reci, Efr, Golden laser, Choherant, Sunic Sumio, TongLi, and YongLi and have yet in over 100 tubes ever found one that will fire below 6% with any degree of reliability when set to the correct ignition current.

Rodney Gold swears by his Chinese machines but he has 6 of them and people who can repair them.

I'm the same Mike, I now have 15 machines (got rid of one) and although not all of them are Chinese I couldn't run a business based on only 1 Chinese machine, they just aren't refined enough and while mine have all been very reliable the general way Chinese DC machines work just isn't up to standard for what I would need to do. I could run a paying hobby on one Chinese machine but that's a whole different game

I'm not a huge supporter of Western made machines and think some of them are overpriced (as well as some being built in Chinese factories that I have seen first hand) but there are times when any choice other than a Western machine is a bad choice.
The confusion between Hobby, Paying Hobby and Business is what causes most of the problems, people will start off with a Hobby, make a few extra to sell on Ebay (paying hobby) and then assume making that in to a long term business will work automatically with their set up...it rarely does.

Looking at my workload today at the unit, 96% is cutting work, my Chinese machines do that very well and at speed, if that dropped to 75% with even so little as 20% engraving I'd be ordering a Trotech or a Halo today to do the engraving work.

Of course..other peoples experiences may be different, like I've mentioned before..I mostly just cut items all day so I'm not really qualified to answer on engraving

cheers

Dave

[Matt McCoy]

Matt

Rodney Gold swears by his Chinese machines but he has 6 of them and people who can repair them. Even he has said if he had only one it would not be a Chinese machine. (I think I am paraphrasing him correctly)...

What if someone had 1 or 2 Chinese machines and a people to repair them? I see some pretty amazing DIY folks here that can make it happen.

Let me get the coffee out of my nose before I answer that Mike.
OK OK yes lets do that as you can see theres only 169 cry's for help on the fsl so they got to be good, oh oh wait a Min theres only 169 made

Well, I did point out that it is highly unscientific and would further encourage anyone reading it to take it with grain of salt. However, just keep it in mind when someone uses post counts on a forum to try to determine which machine is more reliable or problematic -- including that one.

Gee, and as to the numbers posted above you'd think the Chinese made machines had far less troubles or questions anyway than the Western. Or maybe there are more Western made machines than Chinese?

See above. Just food for discussion, though.

[Matt McCoy]

...Something wrong with that Matt, DC current tubes don't fire at 1% unless the baseline current has been set too high, it's the nature of DC arc based tubes that they require a minimum current to sustain the arc. Both Beijing EFR and RECI technical department state the minimum strike current for a DC tube when new is 6% with that increasing the 9-12% after the break in period.
Over the years I have owned and used tubes from Gsi, Reci, Efr, Golden laser, Choherant, Sunic Sumio, TongLi, and YongLi and have yet in over 100 tubes ever found one that will fire below 6% with any degree of reliability when set to the correct ignition current...

Hi Dave: Thanks for the info. I will defer to your expertise and take you at your word.

What is not wrong, are the settings I mentioned and the tube I have, which is listed as a 90W RECI tube. I believe it to be an 80W, though.

BTW, I know some folks that have made a pretty good living on such sites as eBay. I wouldn't generalize it as a platform for paying hobbies. I do not know any of the people in this article.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...-birthday.html

[George M. Perzel]

Hi Gang;
I really don't want to restart the perpetual argument of Chines versus mainstream lasers, but any one who thinks a Chinese laser will not hold up in a "production" environment is sadly mistaken. The $60K a year throuput workload may be a problem for certain types of workloads but I can assure you that its a piece of cake for others-depends on what you are using it for.
I have now had my dual tube large bed Shenhui for four years and have exceeded $80K per year thruput from this one machine which is used about two hours per day for 8 months of the year and 6 hours a day for the remaining four months. Granted, I have a yearlong niche market for laser engraved/cut maps and a 4 month niche market for wood ornament type items. The workload is a combination of engraving and cutting and what I lack in comparable engraving speed is offset to some degree by the double volume achieved with the dual heads. In addition, my map products lend themselves well to the use of vector engraving using single line fonts and/or multiple contour vector lines. There also have been times when the machine has been used 10 hours non-stop-maybe every day for a week.
During the four years I have replaced:
1. One of the two tubes- preemptive as I thought the power was declining
2. The mainboard- lightning hit the cable TV/Internet/Phone incoming cable and wiped ouit two tv's, the Shenhui mainboard, the GCC Mercury mainboard, and a bunch of other stuff-all covered by insurance luckily. I had a spare Shenhui board so no lost time.
3. Several lenses-cutting a lot of thin wood can cause crud buildup if air assist is fails-not a prob at $40 a pop. ( Oven cleaner does remove crud with no ill effects on lens)
4. One air blower-US made- Chinese ones are total junk
5. One LCD display panel-had a spare

I should also mention that I have three GCC "mainstream" lasers, a 60 watt Mercury and two 30 watt Venus units. All are operable but the Mercury has a weird startup proble which GCC thinks is caused by something wrong in the mainboard- $1700 is current price, up from $750 a year ago. These units are seldom used as Shenhui handles bulk of what I do. True, I don't get quite the detail with the Shenhui as with the others but easy to engrave 6pt fonts which is more than I need.
Returning to the original thread topic, Clay's "wood murals" are not much different than my maps although much less detailed. I don't particulialy like Baltic birch as an engraving medium (the reason she uses black powder filler). I would recommend 1/8" or 1/4" luan mahogany without the powder or cherry ply.
Since his budget is limited, I would recommend a large bed, dual head Chinese machine which would allow him to do at least two at a time and experiment with multiple contour lines.. This machine should cost no more tha $9K delivered with an extra tube and spare everything.
Good Luck, Clay
Best Regards,
George
Laserarts

[Bill George]

What if someone had 1 or 2 Chinese machines and a people to repair them? I see some pretty amazing DIY folks here that can make it happen.



Well, I did point out that it is highly unscientific and would further encourage anyone reading it to take it with grain of salt. However, just keep it in mind when someone uses post counts on a forum to try to determine which machine is more reliable or problematic -- including that one.
Gee, and as to the numbers posted above you'd think the Chinese made machines had far less troubles or questions anyway than the Western. Or maybe there are more Western made machines than Chinese?
See above. Just food for discussion, though.

It all depends on how far back that Search went? If it go's back 10 years perhaps the ULS, Epilog and other Western machines were the only ones used, hence more posts.

[Keith Winter]

I'm not a huge supporter of Western made machines and think some of them are overpriced (as well as some being built in Chinese factories that I have seen first hand) but there are times when any choice other than a Western machine is a bad choice.
The confusion between Hobby, Paying Hobby and Business is what causes most of the problems, people will start off with a Hobby, make a few extra to sell on Ebay (paying hobby) and then assume making that in to a long term business will work automatically with their set up...it rarely does.

Looking at my workload today at the unit, 96% is cutting work, my Chinese machines do that very well and at speed, if that dropped to 75% with even so little as 20% engraving I'd be ordering a Trotech or a Halo today to do the engraving work.

Of course..other peoples experiences may be different, like I've mentioned before..I mostly just cut items all day so I'm not really qualified to answer on engraving

cheers

Dave

Definitely a time and place for each type of machine. Really good food for thought Dave!

[Keith Winter]

Hi Gang;
I
During the four years I have replaced:
1. One of the two tubes- preemptive as I thought the power was declining
2. The mainboard- lightning hit the cable TV/Internet/Phone incoming cable and wiped ouit two tv's, the Shenhui mainboard, the GCC Mercury mainboard, and a bunch of other stuff-all covered by insurance luckily. I had a spare Shenhui board so no lost time.
3. Several lenses-cutting a lot of thin wood can cause crud buildup if air assist is fails-not a prob at $40 a pop. ( Oven cleaner does remove crud with no ill effects on lens)
4. One air blower-US made- Chinese ones are total junk
5. One LCD display panel-had a spare

I should also mention that I have three GCC "mainstream" lasers, a 60 watt Mercury and two 30 watt Venus units. All are operable but the Mercury has a weird startup proble which GCC thinks is caused by something wrong in the mainboard- $1700 is current price, up from $750 a year ago. These units are seldom used as Shenhui handles bulk of what I do. True, I don't get quite the detail with the Shenhui as with the others but easy to engrave 6pt fonts which is more than I need.
Returning to the original thread topic, Clay's "wood murals" are not much different than my maps although much less detailed. I don't particulialy like Baltic birch as an engraving medium (the reason she uses black powder filler). I would recommend 1/8" or 1/4" luan mahogany without the powder or cherry ply.
Since his budget is limited, I would recommend a large bed, dual head Chinese machine which would allow him to do at least two at a time and experiment with multiple contour lines.. This machine should cost no more tha $9K delivered with an extra tube and spare everything.
Good Luck, Clay
Best Regards,
George
Laserarts

Really good points as well George. Makes me think about our cutting, if we have to replace even one lens due to the gunk from cutting that's $400 vs $40 on yours. That's another savings right there. Also tubes on the Chinese are quite a bit cheaper to recharge/replace too aren't they?

[George M. Perzel]

Hi Keith;
Cost me $930 for two 80 watt EFR Chinese glass tubes and that included air freight and insurance versus $2890 for reload of my 60 watt Synrad Firestar for the Mercury.
In addition, much is made by some folks about the lack of service, local spares, customer support, etc for Chinese tubes. In truth, the Chinese manuals/documentation is sadly lacking clarity, but every question I have had has been answered either by email or by Skype by Chinese techs with 24 hours -unless the timeframe is around Chinese New Year. Further , parts are readily available and swappable from multiple sources due to the Chinese philosophy that designs are everyones property and anything can be duplicated- at least it appears that way.
Best Regards,
George
Laserarts

[Scott Shepherd]

2) Why didn't you purchase a Speedy 400 or a 120 W tube? My guess would be that it is either overkill or it was outside the budget, or both. You carefully and thoughtfully selected the right tool for the job.

Two reasons....

1) It wasn't available on the market when we bought our machine.

2) We rarely get asked to do work larger than the 300 will handle.

[Dave Sheldrake]

What is not wrong, are the settings I mentioned and the tube I have,

Hiya Matt,

nonono I'm not saying you are wrong, I'm saying there is something wrong A DC tube shouldn't fire at 1%, they aren't designed to hence it's getting more current than it would usually expect

I wouldn't generalize it as a platform for paying hobbies.

I didn't, I meant Ebay is the first stop usually when people find they can make stuff in their spare time and sell it A large number of people and companies make huge sums on Ebay

What if someone had 1 or 2 Chinese machines and a people to repair them? I see some pretty amazing DIY folks here that can make it happen.

Repairs cost my friend, somebody ends up paying, having to employ 2 people just to keep on top of machine maintenance schedules costs me a LOT of money every year. I would think I could buy 2 x speedy 400's for what I pay in machine maintenance but for what I do it's a necessary evil, Chinese machines work for me however I'm not under the illusion they would work for everybody as each circumstance comes with it's own problems.

[Matt McCoy]

Hiya Matt,

nonono I'm not saying you are wrong, I'm saying there is something wrong A DC tube shouldn't fire at 1%, they aren't designed to hence it's getting more current than it would usually expect



I didn't, I meant Ebay is the first stop usually when people find they can make stuff in their spare time and sell it A large number of people and companies make huge sums on Ebay



Repairs cost my friend, somebody ends up paying, having to employ 2 people just to keep on top of machine maintenance schedules costs me a LOT of money every year. I would think I could buy 2 x speedy 400's for what I pay in machine maintenance but for what I do it's a necessary evil, Chinese machines work for me however I'm not under the illusion they would work for everybody as each circumstance comes with it's own problems.

Ah, gotcha. Thanks for the explanation.

[Keith Winter]

George you make some really compelling arguments for the Shenhui 1280. Kev & Dave are you running the same lasers as George or what Chinese lasers are you guys running?

[Dave Sheldrake]

Cutters are currently a 180 watt 1200 x 900 and the biggest is a 220 watt 2,500mm x 1,525mm in Chinese, Western I have 2 much smaller ULS models both with 80 watt tubes and an old Epilog that just sits there waiting to be fixed, Japanese I have a 3.2m x 2.5m 7.5kW industrial. Usual sundry 300 x 300 Galvo machines (x 2) (Chinese one Fibre,one CO2)(oh, and a broken diode fired YAG) having just gotten rid of my bigger Vytek moving bed model that never got used after it's initial job it was purchased for.