Need some quick advice on router vs shaper

[Peter Quinn]

Somebody already does. http://www.cronsrud.com/inverted_routers.html File these under "Not Cheap" I think there is an answer to your question....almost nobody makes such a machine because almost nobody would buy one at the necessary price point. What would be the point of a very expensive ultimate router table whose cutter geometry is still limited to that of router bits? At that point you use a shaper that spins large cutters with chip clearance. You can put 2000# and 10hp behind a router, but the weak point is still the 1/2" shank. I guess you could go with 3/4" shank CNC bits, but at some point you need power feed.....that the point where you get a shaper.

[Joe Calhoon]

This raises a question I've had fpor a while, but for which there's no answer:

Why doesn't some company make a shaper-like routing system. That is, A heavy cabinet with a 5 HP + induction motor, 10,000 - 20,000 speed, and a router chuck embedded in table-mounted bearings. it seesm to me, this would be the ultimate router table, and most serious users never use their table-router for hand-held use.

I know that some higher-end shapers offer a router adapter, but that's not quite the same thing.

Here is a high end router system
http://ruwi.de/en/products/
http://ruwi.de/
Try the second link if the first does not open. Click on language.
They must sell, I see the company at all the European shows.

[Mike Cutler]

This raises a question I've had fpor a while, but for which there's no answer:

Why doesn't some company make a shaper-like routing system. That is, A heavy cabinet with a 5 HP + induction motor, 10,000 - 20,000 speed, and a router chuck embedded in table-mounted bearings. it seesm to me, this would be the ultimate router table, and most serious users never use their table-router for hand-held use.

I know that some higher-end shapers offer a router adapter, but that's not quite the same thing.

Allan
It would be pretty easy to make one of these from a shaper. Change the speed via the pulleys (5:1-6:1), add a speed controller (VFD) and off you would go.


In this thread, unless I missed it, there is one thing a shaper does that a table mounted router cannot do, and that is reverse direction. When I did piece work repair for the boat yards many years ago, I used that feature somewhat often. Reversing the cutter head to cut with the grain on teak and mahogany made the repair piece much nicer. Less hand work after.

[Rod Sheridan]

This raises a question I've had fpor a while, but for which there's no answer:

Why doesn't some company make a shaper-like routing system. That is, A heavy cabinet with a 5 HP + induction motor, 10,000 - 20,000 speed, and a router chuck embedded in table-mounted bearings. it seesm to me, this would be the ultimate router table, and most serious users never use their table-router for hand-held use.

I know that some higher-end shapers offer a router adapter, but that's not quite the same thing.

They do, Felder have a 17,000 RPM spindle available for their shapers............Rod.

[Jeff Ramsey]

I've been doing woodworking for over 40 years now. I've built at least 7 complete bedroom sets, 4 breakfast table sets (with 4 chairs each), one complete kitchen, all the interior doors in one house, and lots of other furniture. I've never owned a shaper and haven't used one since wood class in high school. I am on my 4th or 5th router table and have no plans to upgrade. It is home made with a built in lift and lots of drawers for bits and other necessary pieces. I do raised panel doors on it (although not passage doors, just cabinet doors) and have made lots of molding with it. I don't know what you want to do for wainscoting but I would look at MLCS Woodworking and see if they have a router bit that will do it. If they do, I would stick with the router table. Get a good quality (Bosch or Porter Cable, possibly DeWalt or Makita) mid-sized router combo kit (fixed base and plunge base) and make a router table and get going. I have bigger and smaller routers now but am convinced that something in the 11-12A range is the right place to start. It will do everything, but bigger and smaller will do certain things easier.

That said, if you really have a LOT of parts to make, a shaper might make sense. I am assuming you are a hobbyist with a few rooms to do and some other stuff spaced out over years. Shapers have far more powerful motors and larger cutters that don't dull as quickly. But they take up more space, their cutters are much more expensive, and they are less versatile. A mid sized router will work in a router table and also hand-held. A shaper will not power normal router bits well because the speed is too low. Router bits are made to turn about 20,000 rpm and shapers turn about 10,000. So even though a shaper will take router bits it is not a good substitute for a router.

Jim

i have both a router table with a large selection of bits, and a rather beefy Delta shaper. Guess which machine setup sits idle the most?

[ian maybury]

A shortie back to Mel and Jack - not to hijack the thread.

That's beautiful work Jack. Right down to the relieved nuts. The terminology is a little different, but my guy was time served press tool/tool and die man too. He trained with and worked for many years for a big toolmaking operation in High Wycombe UK which was the centre of the then industry there. He was working as a freelance tool design and supply guy here in Ireland by the time i met him. Much of the industry has gone to the east now, although i gather with mixed results.

I spent several years as a general machinist in a jobbing shop before going back to college, and quite a bit later on managed a large toolroom for several years supporting a large injection moulding operation. I'm not a toolmaker as such, but really miss having free access to machine tools these days. When you have even basic turning and milling capability you look at machines and equipment hrough a totally different lens. I hadn't seen a jointer set up to cut profiles before, i guess it'd need a very good quality machine so it was possible to get quickly and reliably back to table height settings.

The issue with a lot of stuff that works very well is perhaps that it requires the user to have some cop on. We're not going to solve the issue here, but safety while necessary as a result has a tendency to head off down a dumbing down road - which can be self defeating since people will probably just switch off and in doing so raise the risk level to what they are comfortable with anyway. Against that when it's a case of using stuff continuously over many years it's very easy to get caught, and sometimes all it takes is a moment of inattention...

[ian maybury]

Overhead routers tend to be pretty widely used in the plastics fabrication industry for some reason Joe. They are definitely out there...

[Jeff Ramsey]

The biggest problem with a shaper is after you get one you will really want a power feeder. A shaper without a power feeder is a very useful flexible machine. The quality of finish cuts go up considerably once you have a power feeder. I had my shaper for 10 years and used it a lot before I scored a good deal on a power feeder... I love the power feeder on my shaper!

Mike, you meant a shaper *with* a power feeder right?

[jack forsberg]

This raises a question I've had fpor a while, but for which there's no answer:

Why doesn't some company make a shaper-like routing system. That is, A heavy cabinet with a 5 HP + induction motor, 10,000 - 20,000 speed, and a router chuck embedded in table-mounted bearings. it seesm to me, this would be the ultimate router table, and most serious users never use their table-router for hand-held use.

I know that some higher-end shapers offer a router adapter, but that's not quite the same thing.

The Carter is probably one of the oldest hand held router you'll find in the flesh . The Carter was allegedly put on sale during WWI, although the company became part of Stanley in 1929 . Bill Hylton publish a couple of photos of the Carter router .


http://www.woodcentral.com/shots/shot498.shtml


The pin routers often come up for $150 at auction and there were thousands made. Just get one with good bearings as it not worth it to replace them($1000 just for the bearings) with so many good one out there. The production direct drive overhead router (capable of 16 to 18,000 rpm) appeared in the mid to late 1920s they depended on a high frequency electric motor with frequency changer (pre VFD motor speed control)and ball bearings of special oil lube systems with ABEC 7 precision to work, made only for industry and not the small furniture shop in the very early days. The Wadkin LS was made from about 1929/ 30 until the 80s, not Wadkin's earliest high frequency electric router but a main for Wadkin who were very innovative in early high speed spindles with some having numeral control by the mid 40s.











Devices called recessors capable of 6,000 rpm or so and working in a similar way were available from somewhere in the mid to late 19th Century. They seem to have been designed for pattern shops to start with and became more popular with the introduction of hardboard and plywood's in the late 19th century as a machine to pierce openings in door panels, etc. They look a bit like a large drill press but generally have an X-Y compound table, sometimes with (table) rotation to allow them to cut arcs and they have side-thrust bearings in the quill/head stock assembly. Wadkin, of course, made the grand-daddy of them all, the pattern miller, as it's very first product in 1907.

[Mel Fulks]

Thanks, Ian. I think it's good that safety is always ok to wedge in here. As to safety ,there is a long list of warnings that comes with the shaper collars with wisdom like "be careful", "don't over tighten, we can't tell you how tight,ask somebody
who knows what they are doing" I once talked by phone with the owner of a company that made collars . Went through a list of set up procedures and asked why their directions were so lousy. He told me he agreed with my list but the lawyers
told them to not give specific instructions as it could make his company more liable! I would call getting in trouble for giving good safety info problematic. Once when we bought two sets of the lock edge collars I checked them before
using. One was defective! The holes for the screw mechanisms had been drilled to high,the knives were actually lifting
knives clear of the smooth contact service. When I called the company the guy who answered yelled at me that I must be
doing something wrong and they would not replace something that I had ruined! Sent them back and they were replaced. Owner told me they had shipped a defective set up piece! Only my careful checking had prevented me from causing more
damage. This was way back when there was more than one mfg and I won't name here which one it was.

[jack forsberg]

A shortie back to Mel and Jack - not to hijack the thread.

That's beautiful work Jack. Right down to the relieved nuts. The terminology is a little different, but my guy was time served press tool/tool and die man too. He trained with and worked for many years for a big toolmaking operation in High Wycombe UK which was the centre of the then industry there. He was working as a freelance tool design and supply guy here in Ireland by the time i met him. Much of the industry has gone to the east now, although i gather with mixed results.

I spent several years as a general machinist in a jobbing shop before going back to college, and quite a bit later on managed a large toolroom for several years supporting a large injection moulding operation. I'm not a toolmaker as such, but really miss having free access to machine tools these days. When you have even basic turning and milling capability you look at machines and equipment hrough a totally different lens. I hadn't seen a jointer set up to cut profiles before, i guess it'd need a very good quality machine so it was possible to get quickly and reliably back to table height settings.

The issue with a lot of stuff that works very well is perhaps that it requires the user to have some cop on. We're not going to solve the issue here, but safety while necessary as a result has a tendency to head off down a dumbing down road - which can be self defeating since people will probably just switch off and in doing so raise the risk level to what they are comfortable with anyway. Against that when it's a case of using stuff continuously over many years it's very easy to get caught, and sometimes all it takes is a moment of inattention...

I will admit the video is dodgy and was for show and its not how i would use it. The machine is an Under Over and so the moulding can be run under the cutter block with power rollers and this is how i use it. I would use a power feeder up top with a Shaw guard. you can see the holes in the fence for that . Here in Canada we are not under the restrictions of the UK for chip limiting tooling and i am the only one that run the older kit in the shop. I will not run a machine someone else set up.

[jack forsberg]

Mel do you like the collars with bolts? i don't have any but they must be better for set up in a stand. I have not use collars for 20 years and have gone to pin.

[Mel Fulks]

I THINK they are all sold with bolts now. Have used them where a shop had them in use for maybe one frequently used
standard. My guess is mfgs thought they could sell more if shops would use them as dedicated tooling. But who could afford that? Never used them in a set up I made. I can't see any safety advantage. Guess if someone is too weak to use spindle wrench to ruin the collars......they can use a ratchet!

[ian maybury]

Now that is a a..a..a..a…. recessor. I'd no idea stuff like that even existed. The clamps holding the work down look very light in comparison though...

[Mel Fulks]

Yeah, I agree Ian. And all that stuff with its old fashioned ad copy and guy in doctor suit seems kind of like some kind of steam punk lampoon. But we might be looking at the "entry level " model.