Need some quick advice on router vs shaper

[ian maybury]

This genuinely meant - the bottom line i guess is that it as ever in lots of things woodworking comes down the specifics of the situation.

Processing speed/time, messiness of the job, existing equipment (a shaper likes a decent dust system), investment/time to get set up, familiarity/expertise, balance of likely future requirements vs the current job etc.

What can be done on one or the other isn't necessarily the same as what can be done most efficiently on either. I guess if you're prepared to accept varying degrees of inconveniece and/or cost/or time downside in what you are doing then the tasks excluded by either solution become fairly minimal - and the overlap greater. i.e. the sort of thing many of us do when it's a case of making what we have work. Which isn't necessarily quite the same as what we might do given budget and a blank sheet of paper. Or if were are gearing up for only one job, and not terribly concerned about future usefulness of the equipment/the likelihood that we may need to do work less well suited to it….

PS just saw yours now Jack. Those French heads are i think today (in the UK anyway) regarded as a close cousin of a machine gun - but it sure simplified the tooling. I guess in many ways the additional cost of modern shapers is a result of the fairly extensive range of safety equipment the regs require...

[jack forsberg]

This genuinely meant - the bottom line i guess is that it as ever in lots of things woodworking comes down the specifics of the situation.

Processing speed/time, messiness of the job, existing equipment (a shaper likes a decent dust system), investment/time to get set up, familiarity/expertise, balance of likely future requirements vs the current job etc.

What can be done on one or the other isn't necessarily the same as what can be done most efficiently on either. I guess if you're prepared to accept varying degrees of inconveniece and/or cost/or time downside in what you are doing then the tasks excluded by either solution become fairly minimal - and the overlap greater. i.e. the sort of thing many of us do when it's a case of making what we have work. Which isn't necessarily quite the same as what we might do given budget and a blank sheet of paper. Or if were are gearing up for only one job, and not terribly concerned about future usefulness of the equipment/the likelihood that we may need to do work less well suited to it….

PS just saw yours now Jack. Those French heads are i think today (in the UK anyway) regarded as a close cousin of a machine gun - but it sure simplified the tooling. I guess in many ways the additional cost of modern shapers is a result of the fairly extensive range of safety equipment the regs require...

I believe they were band as of the early 80s in the UK and it is illegal for machinery maker to sale them. This is why you don't see much on them any more. The steel is hard to find now and if HSS is used(often was out of ignorance) they would through a knife and did if they reach too far from the spindle. you could get spindle up to 2" round down to 3/4. It was good practice to hog out most the material before they were used. They sure don't meet Puwer98 regs for chip limiting. Wadkin made a boat load of these spindles for there intire range even the little BRS spindle moulder.

here is a catalog cut of the tooling room at Wadkin(Green lane works) in the early 50s and you can see the guy making cleaning the slot in a french spindle for the EQ on the left. if you look in the bottom left hand corner you will see how the made cutter with slots in the top to bolt a knife in the spindles for smaller radis work.

[lowell holmes]

There are shapers and there are SHAPERS , if you get my meaning.

I have a small Rockwell shaper from the 70's. The table is 16"x 18". It is 1/2 hp and has a 1/2" diameter shaft.
With sleeves, it will swing a 3/4" bit. I have made block paneling, stile and rail entrance doors, door frames . . . .
It is about 40 years old.

I must tell you, shaping a 1 3/4"X 5 1/2"X 82" VG fir stile to shape the coped edge, is a terrifying experience if you are hand feeding the stock.

I use it occaisonally, but I have a more relaxed comfort level with a 2hp router.

If your running smaller boards on the shaper, it is not as scary.

I think if you are going to run big heavy boards, a big router (not on a table) is easier. You need one big enough to turn the bits.

If you could find someone with a shaper and observe them in operation, you will be able make your mind up.

[Sam Murdoch]

The OP has made his decision but to add to the discussion - if I had to choose (assuming I already own a few good and appropriate routers) between buying and setting up a router table system with a lift and buying a good used shaper for $ 500.00 that accommodates 1/2" and 1/4" bits/cutters, I would opt for the shaper. The advantages of either have been pretty well discussed above but my inclination in favor of the shaper in this case is for the extra (smoother) power, versatility of its capacity with small and larger bits and the price compared to a good router lift set up. I would still need to own a few hand held routers but the small shop shaper (if you have the room) is a great asset.

[rudy de haas]

++Thanks everyone -

I passed on the shaper in large part because comments here reinforced what I thought: the shaper is better for paid production work, the router table better for me because I don't value my time on this and will mostly be doing small batches - you know: ten of these, 12 of those, etc

In addition the machine I was looking at is a King 351S - which probably meant that I'd have to go buy a fence upgrade too. Bottom line: still looking for a good deal on a router and table combo and hoping not to get forced, by project timelines (i.e. my wife), to spend big on the Excalibur one I like from general international.

[roger wiegand]

I have both (Shaper is a 3 hp Delta of 1970's vintage) and I find that I've transitioned over time such that I now use the shaper 90% of the time in preference to the router table-- the final push was the acquisition of a stock feeder. There has been a learning curve in that progression. Nothing I do counts as "production", I just find the shaper increasingly easier to set up and find that I get a uniformly better finish from it. I don't miss the burned surfaces on my maple and cherry parts.

[Judson Green]

In a shop I used to work in we had something similar but with two knives that hopefully were balanced and sat in a dovetailed way that got squeezed, sometimes with teeth but mostly not. You know what I'm describing Jack?

Found a picture, like the one on the right but the arbor but would do the squeezing, iirc.

Screenshot_2015-05-15-17-23-39.jpg

Made it somewhat easy to grind your own knives. The guy I worked for would grind his own balance em on a triple beam scale. He had/has tons of tooling, but has thrown a few too.

[ian maybury]

Thanks Jack. A nice photo. You know the score on the safety issues.

I know a couple of English toolmaking guys that served their time building press tools for the car industry around then - and worked on into the 70s before moving over here. The term 'fitter' was common usage for a mechanic over here until quite recently, you can see why...

[jack forsberg]

You can still get lock edge collar steel and really it's not necessary to run the plane collars in fact the euro pin lock knives pretty much killed using Collars for. In shop custom grind. In the right hands I don't find them The lock edge dangerous and the cutting geometries is wicked they actually evacuate the chips very Efficiently and the chips take the heat away from the cutter tip you see there's no chipbreaker

In a shop I used to work in we had something similar but with two knives that hopefully were balanced and sat in a dovetailed way that got squeezed, sometimes with teeth but mostly not. You know what I'm describing Jack?

Found a picture, like the one on the right but the arbor but would do the squeezing, iirc.

Screenshot_2015-05-15-17-23-39.jpg

Made it somewhat easy to grind your own knives. The guy I worked for would grind his own balance em on a triple beam scale. He had/has tons of tooling, but has thrown a few too.

[jack forsberg]

Hi Ian
My buddy is a tool and die guy(that's what we call the press and punch machinists) very high skill set these tradesmen. I had him make me up some shoes for the 26" wadkin RM planer moulder in 4140. these removable plates in the head were for square head tooling back in the day. May run some of it too but for curves i thought it would be nice to have index tooling for ease of set up and i don't have to change the spindle moulder set up that can share the same profile.













i ground those knifes from blanks for some historic work.free hand by eye. test cut




Anyway i don't want to derail this thread for those that like drop on cutters sharp from the box

Thanks Jack. A nice photo. You know the score on the safety issues.

I know a couple of English toolmaking guys that served their time building press tools for the car industry around then - and worked on into the 70s before moving over here. The term 'fitter' was common usage for a mechanic over here until quite recently, you can see why...

[Mel Fulks]

Used them for decades and hand ground the knives. I've used the notched and the smooth , prefer smooth. More versatile
in several ways,especially since you can choose the ball bearing location. I don't agree they are dangerous and have
never thrown a knife. They no longer make the smooth ,but if you buy two sets ....you can make your own smooth set. Most problems are caused by using two knives from different bars of steel; one knife will be a little wider than the other and thus not held well. The other mistake is over tightening since the collars are made of soft
steel and will be permanently distorted. When using them as an employee you have to be willing to demand that incompetents be prohibited from using them; and willing to refuse to use any damaged knives or collars. Main rule is after you position the knives in collars ,tighten nut with YOUR FINGERS. Then try to slide the knives,if one moves then something is wrong. Fix it. Then tighten with a wrench a little on the short side. You should not be making any marks in collars.

[jack forsberg]

Mel i like the plan with the pin and a notch in the knife just for those times. Its the tall ones for railing that as you say you do not want to over tighten. still i don't use them as the steel is to closely for big stuff. Wadkin made one with the bottom collar was the rub bearing. Woodwork tools works sale the plain collar steel but you can use the lock edge in plain. Collars need to be very clean i would toss anything knackered. the lock edge is nicer to set up with the setting screws i think but how hard are 2 knifes. I have seen in old tooling catalogs with two types of plan collars one is the 60 deg slot and the other is square slot flat bottom. I like the 60 deg for the aliening and any thickness steel . Thanks Mel for the old time tooling talk.

[Mel Fulks]

"Old time" ?! How can something with CUTTING EDGE technology be "old time" ?! I also like the corg heads for shaper .
But using a bearing can be a problem since knives can only move a whole notch. I posted before you were here about getting two custom made bearings. By having them plus a standard 4 and 1/2 bearing I can get bearing position off no more than 1/64 th. Saves winding tape around bearing.

[Allan Speers]

This raises a question I've had fpor a while, but for which there's no answer:

Why doesn't some company make a shaper-like routing system. That is, A heavy cabinet with a 5 HP + induction motor, 10,000 - 20,000 speed, and a router chuck embedded in table-mounted bearings. it seesm to me, this would be the ultimate router table, and most serious users never use their table-router for hand-held use.

I know that some higher-end shapers offer a router adapter, but that's not quite the same thing.

[lowell holmes]

I don't have any issues with running smaller pieces. I have (home made) a sled that will hold the work piece and keep my hands safe. It's the big pieces in making a door that is difficult for me. I have push sticks that will hold the piece against the fence.