Uhhh, Jeff, which one is idling? I'm curious.
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Uhhh, Jeff, which one is idling? I'm curious.
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MelOriginally Posted by Mel Fulks
The Wadkin Pattern miller i showed are for wood pattern making but Wadkin did make a massave 40 ton one for building train casting for metal.
Its interesting that My Robinson spindle moulder late 40s (top speed 6500 rpm) did come with a router collect special order back in the 40s so if it did not work well they were not the wiser. you could get fixtures for housed stringers and this was one of the main uses.
you could do dove tails too.
Later the Wadkin UX and UR as well as the LS Pin Rotors were use and fixtures made to do stringers faster. you can see the flip up finger in the nose cut to index the rise and run
Now of course there has to be a grand daddy of housed stringer machines and that too is from the UK the John Pickles ST. The Pickles appeared in catalogs in the 30s to mill 2 stringer top and bottom in pairs one go with 2 router heads of 4 hp each so you see high speed routers have made it one to a fair bit of kit.
later these became fully automatic
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQKzg6aueWg
Last edited by jack forsberg; 05-16-2015 at 5:40 PM.
jack
English machines
[OP]
Member
Well.. I hate being wrong, but I was and I'm glad the people on this forum corrected me. I was sure the shaper was an over-kill idea and so passed on the offer triggering my question after reading the first few comments. As it turns out, however, subsequent comments make the case for the shaper look compelling and I'm therefore dropping any ambitions toward buying or building a router cabinet in favor of shopping for a shaper.
The convincers were:
1 - arithmetic: it turns out that the cutting edge on a 2.5" diameter shaper head running at 8000 RPM hits the wood at about a 1,000 feet/minutefaster than a 1/2" router bit at 30,000 RPM. (ft/sec= 2 x pi x radius in inches) x RPM/12 ;
2 - several people pointed out that a shaper will do things a router won't, but a router generally won't do all the things a shaper will; and,
3 - I tried using a friend's General International "excalibur" router table with a freud 3.25 HP router (combined = $1,300 Canabucks at list) and another guy's king 350 (same as Grizzly 1026) shaper. There's no comparison: the shaper is easier to set up, faster to use, and a lot quieter.
So thanks, everyone.
Last edited by rudy de haas; 05-21-2015 at 3:19 PM.
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welcome to the light! Did I mention they are quieter too? It is nice to have both, but everything I do with my router lift I could do with a small router screwed to a sheet of plywood, just not as convienent. Good luck shopping and work safe!
"A good miter set up is like yoga pants: it makes everyone's butts look good." Prashun Patel
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A shaper is a bit of an eye opener seen in action for the first time Rudy. Just in case - be careful that you don't have some 'must do' job that happens to be one of the relatively few that either can't be or are not conveniently done on a shaper...
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Hmm, A small 3hp asian shaper could be a great machine to bolt a cast iron router table too. Two machines in one base. Never done it but would be a cool setup.
Glad its my shop I am responsible for - I only have to make me happy.
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No problem with anybody wanting a shaper. I'm not sure what it will do that a router in a router table will not but I wouldn't be surprised if there are things. But I don't think a shaper can cut dados in a board like a router table can. And there is no way a shaper can become a hand held tool. In a big enough shop there would be a place for both. In my little shop, I plan to just keep using my router table. Even though I've seen bits, I don't think a router table would be good at making entry doors. That's more of a shaper thing to me. If I wanted to make one, I would use applied molding (possibly made on the router table). Adapting to the tools I have and like to use is part of the fun. I made interior doors this way and was happy with the result. I don't think I could have made the molding on a shaper.
I don't like the noisiness of routers but I don't count much for that because a shaper isn't quiet enough to use without hearing protection. With the muffs on, either is OK. Seems like every power tool in my shop needs me to put on the muffs except drills.
Contributor
Jim
Each person has different needs and criteria for choosing their machines. If a router table works for you, and it works for many, many people including myself, than stick with it.
In an earlier post I pointed out that one thing a shaper table does that a router does not, is have the ability to reverse the direction of the bit rotation. If a person is just making linear moulding, door and window parts, etc, where the material typically moves right to left in a straight line, and this is the operation that many people associate a shaper with doing, then a router in a table will replicate that function on a smaller scale. It does a lot more though.
If you use a shaper to do template work , that is where the ability to spin the bit in the opposite direction,or change the bearing guide on the cutter head from top to bottom in a minute or so comes in very handy. You will always be cutting with the grain and a single template is that is necessary. Sometimes it takes right and left hand cutter sets, sometimes not.
Power and the ability to reverse the rotation are some key differences in my opinion.
Last edited by Mike Cutler; 05-22-2015 at 9:35 AM.
"The first thing you need to know, will likely be the last thing you learn." (Unknown)
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with top support bearings the spindle moulder can put cutter as tall as 16"
jack
English machines
Member
Today I was making casing for an arched top transom out of some fairly straight grained flat sawn sapele, 1" thick. It's a 60" length of a segment with around. 90" radius, so it rises around 4" from ends to middle. Not a harsh curve to trim to pattern, on a router table I'd have to cut real close to the line, and worry that the sapele might spring outside of my template lines, and worry that even a very sharp 1 1/8" D pattern bit would rip off the ends on the down hill side, possibly climb cut, or switch bits and run the template down.....see where I'm going with this? Sure, it can be done successfully, takes a little time, experience, careful consideration. I used a shaper, 5" 4 knife insert carbide head with shear....cut a heavy 1/8 over the line to allow for the spring which did happen, wound up taking off almost 1/4" at the long side.....shaper did it in one pass, straight through, cut like butter, smooth like glass. Sanding took maybe 2 minutes? It's about what you do, how much of it, what the standards are and how long you want it to take. Hobby shop or pro , each equation is different but the variables are the same.
Contributor
[QUOTE=jack forsberg;2420652]with top support bearings the spindle moulder can put cutter as tall as 16"
QUOTE]
And when the Wadkin is not up to the task you can call in the big German
Wadkin And Martin.jpg
Big & Little.jpg
Member
[QUOTE=Joe Calhoon;2420719]Look at that the Englishman And Germans are getting along. Part of your uk tour joewith top support bearings the spindle moulder can put cutter as tall as 16"
QUOTE]
And when the Wadkin is not up to the task you can call in the big German
Wadkin And Martin.jpg
Big & Little.jpg
Contributor
Hi Jack, Yes from a UK shop. It was good to see those shops, they are quite different from all the shops I have toured in the EU.
The EQ spindle moulder is a solid machine. I was able to run it and play with the controls a bit. Fitted with some Aigner gear and modern tooling it is usable in a pro shop. They use it for setups in play for a while and the T27 for one off and joinery setups.
In another German shop I came across a Martin T 25 with a side mount slider and the swing out tenon saw. First time to see one of these in the wild. Picture does not show the saw very well.
IMG_2096.jpg
IMG_2101.jpg
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