hopefully last wall oven question....

[Justin Jump]

The wife "finally" picked out appliances, Kenmore Elite, the spec sheet.....

http://c.shld.net/assets/docs/spin_prod_753474212.pdf

says to locate the bottom shelf 11 1/2" from the floor. This seems and feels really low to me. After the toe kick, this leave only a 8" or so space for a roll out for pans and trays and such.

The other thing that bothers me is the spec also states to put the electrical connection down there, an access it through a hole in the shelf, I don't see how someone could get to that through an 8" opening.

Therefore, I am thinking of keeping my bottom distance to @ 16", and placing the electrical connection in the cut out area, anyone have any issues doing this?

Also, the support shelf - is the norm to pocket screw the double support shelves in, dado and pockets, or just pockets and a support piece under the shelf?

Thanks again.....

[Bob Vavricka]

The spec sheet is for a oven/microwave combination. If that is what you have the suggested 11 1/2 is probably to keep the microwave from being too high. However, since it says "suggested height" I don't think you will have any problem making it higher as long as the microwave height works for you.

On the electrical, I think if there was room for it to be in the cutout space they would have specified or allowed it as an option. I might consider it in the cutout space if you could recess the junction box so it doesn't protrude into the cutout space or cause a problem with the depth. It could be they want to keep your house wiring out of the cutout to keep it away from the heat. I believe the wires on the oven have an insulation to withstand higher temperatures and if they are like the one I recently installed, are smaller gauge that the required house wiring.

On the shelf, I would go with either a dado or pocket screws and a cleat under the shelf for added support.

[Justin Jump]

I can picture why the do that, a quick Google search shows many a box in the cut out area.....

I just cant see lying on the floor reaching through an 8" opening 24" deep and trying to connect 4 10 gauge wires (according to the sheet, 30 amp) screwing the cover on and attaching the strain relief on that style cord.

Just appears why too to tight to get in there and make the connections.

The spec sheet is for a oven/microwave combination. If that is what you have the suggested 11 1/2 is probably to keep the microwave from being too high. However, since it says "suggested height" I don't think you will have any problem making it higher as long as the microwave height works for you.

On the electrical, I think if there was room for it to be in the cutout space they would have specified or allowed it as an option. I might consider it in the cutout space if you could recess the junction box so it doesn't protrude into the cutout space or cause a problem with the depth. It could be they want to keep your house wiring out of the cutout to keep it away from the heat. I believe the wires on the oven have an insulation to withstand higher temperatures and if they are like the one I recently installed, are smaller gauge that the required house wiring.

On the shelf, I would go with either a dado or pocket screws and a cleat under the shelf for added support.

[Jim Dwight]

Do the wires come out of the oven on the bottom? That would make sense if they want to electrical on the bottom. It would help to have the oven in front of you to see. I would think the outside of the oven is insulated because it may come close to wood. That should protect the wiring. Relative to an 8 inch space I have seen situations much tighter than that to make connections before. I would probably move it up, however. My wife is 5'9" and I'm 6'2" so we normally want things higher than "standard".

One option is to leave a loop of conductor in the opening and wait and attach the box after you have the oven. You can see where you have space for it and wire enough to connect to it at that point. Easiest would be if the wire is long enough to make the connection before sliding the oven in. But the wire may not be that long and if it is, there has to be room for a loop of it in the opening or the oven won't slide in. You could also make the drawer less deep and put the box behind the drawer. But then you lose storage.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Is it possible that the oven has "pig tail" that will allow the connections to be made before it's lifted into place?

I think the height is suggested to produce a comfortable working height.

[Phil Thien]

Is it possible that the oven has "pig tail" that will allow the connections to be made before it's lifted into place?

I think the height is suggested to produce a comfortable working height.

The same thought occurred to me, that there would be a line cord that gets attached to the oven and it would just be a matter of reaching-in and plugging the cord into the receptacle.

Of course, someone has to wire a receptacle in that spot to start with, but I imagine that could be done before the cabinet is installed.

In any event, someone will be along shortly that will tell you how this is typically accomplished. I've never had a built-in oven, so I really have no idea.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Phil....This may sound crazy but somewhere someone told me or I read, for a reason I don't know, wall ovens had to be directly wired versus electric ranges which can have plugs on them.


BTW.....we are getting one in the next couple weeks. We have already purchased one just waiting for the kitchen addition to be completed, cabinets built and installed.

[Justin Jump]

Definitely has to be hard wired, no receptacle and plug...I belive they come with armored pigtail.

[Tom Ewell]

From the PDF put up by the OP.

The armored cable leads supplied with the appliance are UL-recognized for connection to larger gauge household wiring. The insulation of the leads
is rated at temperatures much higher than temperature rating of household wiring. The current carrying capacity of the conductor is governed by the temperature rating of the
insulation around the wire, rather than the wire gauge alone.

As far as the height from floor, keep in mind that most standard ranges (stand alone types) have the bottom of the oven doors in the 8-12" (or so) range from the floor so if you're used to using this type, there shouldn't be a problem using the recommended hgt. If you want to customize the hgt. feel free, just don't get too carried away from std. design practices.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

With that in mind, Justin, I suspect the 11 1/2" height to the spacers shown in the drawing is just to position the oven at a comfortable working height and to allow for the length of the armored pigtail so the unit can sit on the floor while being wired up. If it was raised too much, you might not have enough pigtail to reach the connection box with the unit sitting on the floor. Of course one could just block the oven up while making the connections in that case.

We will have a new unit installed over the next few weeks.

[Peter Quinn]

The 11 1/2" dimension is the "suggested height" in their literature, based on what I don't know, but that puts the oven door uncomfortably low just like on a range/oven combo. In the case of a range/oven the driving factor is the 36" counter height, so everything has to fall below that. The beauty of a wall oven is you can put it at a human height. Just for giggles I pulled the specs for another make of wall oven/micro combo....a GE Advantium....same basic dimensions as the one you have chosen. They suggest a cut out location from floor of 21 5/8". That gives you space to work and/or a reasonable drawer or two below.....you don't need a recessed toe kick on a wall oven cabinet....it comes out to meet you, plenty of place for your toes to go! No counter....no toe kick. You might see them on stock cabs but you won't generally on custom, though you may see a base molding that keeps the elevations consistent, you could steal some of that to grow the drawers. I'd probably lay this out full scale on a sheet of corrugated cardboard and use the mock up to set the oven at the optimal height for your wife, there is no exact standard for this, more of a range, if you or she are grossly outside of average height you can either stick to a height that is average or choose to accommodate yourself and risk resale issues at a later date. Thats the beauty of doing it yourself. You get exactly what you want and are not stuck with industry standards that may have as much to do with production efficiency as your comfort.

On the electrical it looks like you can put the J box where ever you want as long as it fits. On the GE oven I pulled there is a recess at the top right of the unit that allows you to fit a J box there in a standard 23 1/2" depth box. Your oven may not allow clearance behind for this which is why they place it below, you could also put it in an adjacent box if that is more convenient. If you are making the boxes deeper than 23 1/2" interior as discussed in previous post then you may have room to put the box where ever you want.....of course it will also fit below behind a standard 21" deep drawer in a deeper box as well.

[Phil Thien]

Phil....This may sound crazy but somewhere someone told me or I read, for a reason I don't know, wall ovens had to be directly wired versus electric ranges which can have plugs on them.

BTW.....we are getting one in the next couple weeks. We have already purchased one just waiting for the kitchen addition to be completed, cabinets built and installed.

Not crazy at all, I just didn't know.

I had to replace the kitchen sink side sprayer hose this last weekend, it was not a fun job. I think I'd put having to wire that armored cable to a box through an 8" high opening in a 24" deep cabinet in about the same category.

[Justin Jump]

So I pulled the drawer on my range last night, which is about 8", just to try and reach into there and see how hard it would be.....

I think I am going to wait until my wall oven arrives before I run the electric for it, and if possible, put it in the cutout.

[Martin Wasner]

If you can put the electrical box in the oven opening of the cabinet, I would do so.

As far as height goes. My cabinets typically have a 3-3/4" toe space, with a 1-1/4" bottom rail. So the top of the bottom rail is 5" off of the floor. With an oven cabinet I have that 5", then I'm usually running a 10" drawer opening, then whatever my face frame sizes are, if it's 2", then the bottom of the wall oven ends up being 17" off of the floor.

Most of the time, wall ovens do not hang over the bottom of the opening, so if you're running a 2" rail, it can be 2". On the top and sides though, you will likely have to do something with the rails and stiles so the reveals work out, and you maintain that 2" reveal around the appliance.

[Martin Wasner]

This is an example of running a 10" drawer with 2" as the main face frame size, and a double wall oven above it. The oven above it doesn't look like it is much more than 8" above counter height. I wouldn't call that excessive. If you've got a microwave going above it, a microwave is typically ~54" off the floor to interior when using a generic microhood.

I set the opening above and below the unit at the same width as the appliance. You have to start with a wider stile, then notch it out for your top and bottom openings, so the middle opening is smaller and will accept the oven. That way the vertical line between the doors on top, and the drawer and the bottom carries through with the oven. Cleaner look in my opinion. But you do have to make the cabinet a little bit wider to make that work. If you're going overlay, it might not be that much of an issue to you.