Romex in conduit

[John K Jordan]

I realize this thread is not specifically about underground wiring but outdoor and underground are often related.

Even when not buried I prefer to run direct-burial cable in plastic conduit instead of pulling individual wires, even for short runs (unless the conductors are large, of course). I like the extra physical protection, especially underground. I also read of exleriences where burrowing animals chewed through UF cable. The recommendation for animal deterrent is to use 2" conduit. My runs are usually between farm buildings and runs are long - it would be a real pain to dig anoher trench and do it over. My farm has over 2500 ft of outside wiring with not a single suspended wire - even the utility service is buried, 7200 volts in a 600 ft underground run to a transformer on a concrete pad. I don't have to worry about trees in a storm!

BTW, since it is sometimes difficult to pull UF cable through long runs of conduit, I lay the entire length of cable next to the trench and slide conduit sections over the cable and glue one at a time. This is much easier.

Also, I don't know if this is standard practice for underground wiring (and water) but when filling the trench I add a few inches of fill then lay down two strips of wide brightly colored caution tape, then nearly fill the trench and add a third tape a few inches below the ground surface. This has been so handy when digging or locating years later.

When going to all the trouble of digging a trench to my shop (250 ft), I laid an extra run of empty 2" conduit in the trench, empty except for a rope.

JKJ

[Tom M King]

Not in any way a recommendation, but just a note about using NM outside. First, I'll say I don't do it. BUT, I know of one case. A guy here at the lake (not in a restricted development) started building his house himself in 1984. It's still not completed. He's has had a 6/3 NM running from the temporary service pole strung up in a Maple tree, and then into his house since he first started. It's still there. The Maple tree has grown over the wire, and it's imbedded probably 3 inches inside the tree now. He says he still is using it, and has never done anything to it other that piece it back together where he ran over it with a lawnmower............

[John K Jordan]

... note about using NM outside...

That's pretty common on farms where nothing is inspected. I've seen Romex suspended between poles, nailed outside of barns, buried directly, run onto well houses.

I have one of my own perhaps as interesting. I once ran 400' of extension cords from the house to give me temporary light in the barn. These were 100 ft #12 extension cords, plugged into GFCI at the house, directly on the ground under the leaves in the woods. Where one cord plugged into the next I globbed dielectric grease, wrapped the joint with plastic and duct tape, put it on a brick, and covered it with a bucket, At one point it is all of 4" under a gravel drive. Enough to give an electrical inspector or insurance man a heart attack.

It has been there for 11 or 12 years now. Not one issue, yet, and no apparent deterioration in the cords where visible. Some day I'll replace it and do it right. Real soon now. (I bought the cable and conduit a couple of years ago.)

[Julie Moriarty]

John, you're scaring me.

[Art Mann]

I'm with Julie on this one but I grew up in a rural environment and wiring like John Jordan describes was commonplace. At my childhood home, we had a 10/3 wire running about a hundred feet from the house to an out building buried underground about 6 or 8 inches. It was just plain old Romex cable. No conduit. No UF-B. So far as I know, that 40 year old installation is still working. I tell this story just to illustrate how crazy the wiring is in some areas. I think that type of installation is at best unreliable, but in some cases can be dangerous. In your case, the worst thing that will probably happen is the ground fault interrupter will begin tripping as the insulation in the extension cord degrades.

[John Coloccia]

John, you're scaring me.

My friend has a farm in Pennsylvania. They pipe compressed air around in PVC....open air, underground, freezing temperatures, buried under the road, etc. No matter how many times I tell them it's dangerous, ESPECIALLY in their conditions of freezing temperatures, they simply will not listen, and it will never be changed until it eventually explodes. Some of the wiring is even scarier.

[John K Jordan]

Ha, you might be amazed at some of the wiring I ran into in Mexico! (I spent some time in the central highlands, working at a children's camp) I saw public buildings (with little kids around) where the 110v wiring was bare copper pairs stapled or nailed directly to cinder block walls, sometimes at heights where kids could lean against or reach and touch. They evidently were taught not to. Breaker boxes rusted and falling apart, no receptacle covers, nothing grounded, hot often switched with neutral, fuses jumpered with wires. An electrical inspector would have a stroke. By comparison my extension cords were gold plated!

I was adding light circuits in one large building and found where someone had run 14 ga insulated wires (no romex) from a 50 amp breaker, strung loose at least 75 ft over auditorium ceiling joists to a WATER HEATER at the other end of the building. Yikes. The wires in the attic were hot to touch. The worst thing was new wire and breakers were simply not available anywhere in the region. (We drove 5 hours to find 2x4s) It was two years before I could get back there with supplies. I prayed about that one a lot.

I wired basement classrooms where the only lights the kids had ever had was what filtered down the stairwell. No desks or tables - they kneeled on the floor and used the bench as a table. There was three phase into the camp but the big water pump didn't work - one leg from the pole was only 20 volts or so. What supplies I could find were poor - one day I replaced deteriorated fluorescent fixtures with incandescents in a dining room and by the next day over 1/3 of the new bulbs were burned out. My Spanish is poor and only one shopkeeper in town spoke any English so even shopping was a challenge.

This was in an area that actually HAD electricity and where the people actually had food every day. Many places we went to were not as fortunate. I watched two old women in one village fill rusty gas cans tied to their donkey with drinking water pulled by hand from the village well. One elderly woman cried when I gave her a small flashlight and a sack of batteries - to get home after work each day she walked about a mile in the dark up a narrow mountain trail. Many teenagers had serious skin problems due to vitamin deficiencies. No doctors or dentists - plenty funerals and toothless adults. We sometimes don't realize how well we live and how blessed we are compared to many in the world!

JKJ

[John K Jordan]

In your case, the worst thing that will probably happen is the ground fault interrupter will begin tripping as the insulation in the extension cord degrades.

Art, the GFCI is one reason why I'm not worried. Another is the cords are high quality - unlike some other cords I have here, after all those years I detect NO deterioration in the outer coating, perhaps because it is not exposed to sunlight and UV but shaded by trees and leaves. Amazingly, the outer insulation is still flexible and not the least brittle. With the exception of where it crosses under the drive, the entire length is down a hill in a rough area that gets no foot traffic, except perhaps by spiders and chipmunks. And under the drive by the barn it is bedded in sand so rocks cannot easily pierce the insulation. I check the GFCI occasionally with a tester from the barn end. In any event, the "temp" circuit should be replaced by a short underground run in conduit from the new building before the end of June. I am more surprised than anyone it has lasted this long. Maybe I'll submit it to the Guinness book of records.

Make no mistake, all permanent wiring (and construction) at my place is by the book or better, even though none requires inspection. I would hate for a future owner to discover some problem the hard way.

JKJ

[Julie Moriarty]

John, could you do everyone a favor and say, "Don't try this at home!" Someone might get the hair-brained idea that codes and safe installation practices don't need to be followed and won't end up as lucky as you. You've been very lucky so far but all luck eventually runs out.

[Rod Sheridan]

Electrical PVC isn't watertight. I thought it was until, when as an apprentice, I was told to blow the water out of the pipe before we pulled the wire. And then the next and the next and the next. It wasn't just that job either. Practically every underground PVC conduit run I've ever been involved pulling wire through was wet.

In addition to leaks Julie, a lot of the water is the result of condensation in the conduit from building air entering the conduit.......Regards, Rod.

[John K Jordan]

Unless you know exactly what you are doing and KNOW the tradeoffs and risks you are literally playing with fire and lightning. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing. When your luck runs out there could be much damage, injury, and someone, possibly yourself or an innocent adult or child may die.

I recommend to always get a licensed electrician to do or review any new circuits or modifications. Electrical power is extremely powerful. Electrical power is incredibly fast. Great danger can lurk behind everyday, commonplace electrical things.

Electrical codes were not developed to keep the city and county and inspectors in business, but are the result of years of experience analyzing "accidents" where the unexpected happened and things went seriously and sometimes tragically wrong.

There, is that clear?

JKJ

[John Coloccia]

Reminds me of when I was working out at the test flight facility of Edwards AFB. "Follow the rules, even the dumb ones...they're written in blood." They meant it, too.

[Julie Moriarty]

When I walked into my first class as an electrician apprentice, the first thing the instructor did was a show and tell. He showed us and told us how electricity can kill you. That was in 1974 and I still remember it clear as a bell. Grisly pictures, et al, permanently ingrained in my mind.

JKJ, while it's fun talking about beating the odds, there's a responsibility those of us who are still alive have to those we want to keep alive. Kind of like telling our kids we robbed a bank when we were dumb kids. But we didn't get caught and later realized how dumb we were. Then believing our kids would never make the same mistake.

JC, I know exactly what you are talking about. I ran the electric on a government project and you did safety or you were gone. Lots of stories there.

[Peter Aeschliman]

"Follow the rules, even the dumb ones...they're written in blood."

That's a great saying!

[John K Jordan]

JKJ, while it's fun talking about beating the odds, there's a responsibility those of us who are still alive have to those we want to keep alive. Kind of like telling our kids we robbed a bank when we were dumb kids. But we didn't get caught and later realized how dumb we were. Then believing our kids would never make the same mistake.

I don't know how this subthread went from outdoor extension cords to robbing banks, but I'll defer to those of you with experience with that. My own misspent youth was wasted doing terrible things like practicing Chopin piano etudes and reading Shakespeare.

If I recall correctly the NEC (2003 or somesuch) had a surprising lack of direction concerning outdoor use of extension cords. Almost everything that I found about extension cords was about use inside or attached to a building, hidden inside walls, fed through holes, etc. Misuse here is indeed both common and horribly dangerous, and results in many house fires and tragic deaths. Someone told me the NEC now limits the number of days extension cords can be used with outdoor Christmas decorations, but if so I wonder if this is because these are generally plugged into, attached to, or supply power to fixtures attached to a house. But I am no NEC expert. Does the NEC specifically address other outdoor use? Where in the code?

From my own experience at construction and industrial sites over the years I know authorities like OSHA, for example, are very specific about the use of flexible temporary power cords. Construction sites, inside and outside, have numerous hazards such as equipment movement, falling objects, saws, welding, and cords pulled through puddles and over piles of stuff. I have seen frayed, cut, worn, and patched cords in wide use. The OSHA people, I understand, push for universal use of GFCIs to reduce the number of deaths from electrocution. Unfortunately, OSHA regs often seem widely ignored until the inspector drives up. That never even happens on most jobs.

None of the usual construction or industrial or household hazards exist in using an outdoor cord in a private outdoor protected area with no possible foot traffic, no UV exposure, and no part near or connected to a structure. My use has less than 200 milliamps of security lighting fed by a GFCI at an exterior meter breaker panel 100 ft from the nearest structure, entirely in an area inaccessable to humans or animals bigger than snakes. This is heavy duty industrial 12ga cable protected from damage by rocks and moisture that gets periodic testing and inspection. Although my use may trigger a variety of opinions mine is this temporary use is acceptable for me and it has nothing to do with beating the odds. Those think otherwise should certainly do otherwise.