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Several years ago, I took a tour of Gibson Guitars at their facility just off Beale Street in Memphis. At the time they made some of their most expensive high end hollow body guitars there. It looked to me like a majority of their equipment was Grizzly.
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So Geoff,Originally Posted by Geoff Whaling
For those of us who might not be able afford to buy the expensive brands, you would suggest we don't turn at all?
Or beginners should just jump right in and buy a $10,000 Robust?
To me that appears to neither help the tool manufacturers or promote the art of turning. Are you suggesting that turning should only be practiced by the wealthy?
Thanks for the idea!
Last edited by Ken Fitzgerald; 06-10-2015 at 7:39 PM.
Ken
So much to learn, so little time.....
Contributor
One of the things I do as a normal routine any time I get a tool in the shop is to go through it and check for anything that might cause it to not operate at optimal efficiency........I automatically tighten every screw or bolt I see, and make sure any belts are in alignment and pulley set screws are tight against the motor shaft. I also check about maintenance requirements, especially any required lubrication.
My table saw fence alignment is less than 1/2 of .001 front to back of the saw and in parallel alignment with the blade and miter slot.........measured with dial indicator and while I know that is overkill for woodworking, it is just how I like my equipment to operate. I went through the 0766 lathe and tightened every screw, bolt, belt and made sure my bed was level front to back, end to end and diagonal, both directions.........my centers line up exactly. My unit runs smooth and performance is definitely there so far.........I believe it will last as long as a 3520b!
Remember, in a moments time, everything can change!
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Nothing wrong with doing any of that. But, that still is no excuse for motors hanging by a thread on a new machine. I think that is what the OP was trying to say.
Member
First, his name was Geoff. Second, Robust lathes don't cost $15,000. Third, I haven't read where anyone said only the wealthy should turn. I am far from that myself. As I stated previously, I think this new lathe is a good value, but that doesn't excuse new machines with motors hanging off, no matter where they were made or what they cost. This thread has been civil for the most part, but it seems it has riled you up. I am not bashing machines, I am just saying they could do better.So George,
For those of us who might not be able afford to buy the expensive brands, you would suggest we don't turn at all?
Or beginners should just jump right in and buy a $10,000-15,000 Robust?
To me that appears to neither help the tool manufacturers or promote the art of turning. Are you suggesting that turning should only be practiced by the wealthy?
Thanks for the idea!
Contributor
Michael,
First thank you for the corrections. I corrected my post directed at Geoff using his proper name and after going to Robust's site, I corrected my reference to the price of one of their lathes too in that same post. With accessories however, you could approach $11,000 but I left the value at $10,000.
When someone suggests that turners should unite and buy only good quality Australian, Canadian, American or European lmanufactured lathes, they are by default, suggesting you spend larger amounts of money to purchase a lathe. People of lessor means might not have that larger amount of money. Most turners are not professionals but rather are hobbyists. Frankly, while I could afford a fully dressed out Robust, I can't justify that amount of money for 1 tool for a hobby. But, notice I didn't attack directly or indirectly those who do buy Robust or the Robust company. I didn't accuse the better quality lathes of being overpriced. I simply said I can't justify spending that amount of money for 1 tool for a hobby. It's subjective.....there is no right or wrong....I have no reason to feel I'm on a higher moral ground......it's a matter of personal opinion.
When the Sawstop saw was first developed and discussed here at SMC, I argued against the petitioning of the CPSC to require all future tablesaws to have Sawstop or a similar device for the same reason. The Sawstop safety device prices the saw out of reach for some people with limited financial resources. The individual who might consider starting a contracting business to work their way to a better financial position, might not be able to afford this more expensive saw. The regulation would force people to either have a larger amount of money to purchase a saw or not buy a saw at all.
Grizzly tools fills a market niche that allows hobbyists and those with smaller budgets to buy tools that they might not be able to justify or afford if the same or equivalent tools were more expensive. The company operates with a business plan that has a history and apparently is successful. Within their manner of operation, they provide good customer service. Regular customers of Grizzly tools realize this and are willing to accept the possible shortcomings for a tool with a lower price tag knowing they might have to deal with some issues.
As someone who worked for 34 years for 2 different global, recognized manufacturers, I know what new product roll outs look like. I have prayed that difficult customers didn't order or take delivery of a newly released product line before the bugs were worked out of them. I have dealt with a multitude of problems that shouldn't have happened during shipment, delivery but did. It happens and the systems I am talking about cost at times approaching $2,000,000 and it still happened. It will continue to happen.
For the record, I own and turn on a PM-3520B lathe.
What this thread has really been about is to attack on Grizzly in particular, Asian manufactured products in general and in doing so, intentionally, indirectly antagonize those who would dare to buy such products. It is a repeated theme at this website and frankly it gets old.
Ken
So much to learn, so little time.....
Contributor
That seems a little harsh Ken.
I think the OP was asking why anyone would put up with receiving new equipment that pretty much got beat up and damaged in shipping. Seems like a fair question to me, regardless of where it was made. Especially since the importer had stated, according to at least one post on another thread, that they were going to open up and inspect all incoming lathes before they were shipped from the distribution points.
We live in a global environment - our goods come from everywhere. I actually think it's reasonable to expect that those goods live up to reasonable expectations.
That said, anyone who takes advantage of what's possibly a 'too good to be true' introductory price on a piece of equipment that has a moderate level of complexity to it's construction should probably expect that they are going to be, at best, beta testers.
Member
Ken, I was about to post that exact same message but now I will just agree with you. I have seen countless responses to a new or inexperienced member's request for advice in which certain tool snobs recommend very expensive European or US made tools when the person may have budgeted only a few hundred dollars.
I remember my first paying woodwork back in 1977. I was struggling to get by and my equipment set consisted of a 1 hp Craftsman table saw, an AMT 4 inch jointer (remember that brand?) driven by a salvaged washing machine motor and an 8.5 amp Craftsman router mounted in the middle of a salvaged road sign with a 2 X 4 and a couple of C clamps as a fence. I made some good money making and selling bee hives and internal frames to a beekeeping equipment retailer. You couldn't tell the difference between my work and the same stuff distributed by Dadant, Kelly or any of the other commercial suppliers. I know what can be done with old and inexpensive tools if you are willing to work with them.
When I read these tool selection requests, I always try to offer what I think is the best low cost alternative just in case the poster is financially challenged. I still remember what it was like when I needed tools and had little money.
Member
Thank you Ken!!
I'm a "newbie" here on SMC so I have tried to stay out of this discussion. I'm not a newbie when it comes to woodworking though as I've been working in wood one way or another for 4o+ years.
My shop has a variety of different equipment made from various Mfg. Some like my old Delta [made in the USA] bandsaw and some made in Taiwan, China or wherever. And yes, I own a Grizzly lathe and table saw. None of my equipment is perfect, they all have needed to be "tweaked" a bit to get them where they should be. In my opinion anyone who owns shop equipment should be able to perform their own maintenance on their equipment.
I never buy top of the line tools nor do I purchase the cheapest, I'm a middle of the roader. Not that I can't afford to buy the best but because I as a hobbiest don't really need top of the line tools. My Grizzly lathe and table saw are all and more I could ask for.
I don't ever berate someone for owning something less than I, and it's getting a little more than annoying hearing some of the negatives from folks that own more expensive equipment than I do.
I've noticed that some were just hiding in the wings hoping that there would be some negative reviews of the new G0766, just so they cold say "told ya so, told ya so".
It's something that me as one of the new kids on the block or someone who might be a prospective new member here on the Creek find repulsive.
Anytime a new product hits the market there are always a few kinks and bugs to be worked out. As long as the makers of the equipment listen to the customers and rectify the problems all is good.
Member
What seems harsh to me is a person's criticism of a company that sells stationary woodworking tools that actually do their job pretty well at a price point that US workers could never match. If lathes strarted at $10,000, there wouldn't be enough of them to even keep the turner's forum going.
Contributor
Can't speak for others, but for me this horse has been beaten to death. I'm going to go out to the shop and turn something.
Member
Great idea Dwight.
Member
I'm with you on this! Like you, I'm new here as well so was trying to stay out of the conversation.
Being I've been a part of tooling up two major guitar factories in my career, there are more than one way to skin the cat. You can go out and drop large coin on a top end machine, or you can buy a lower quality machine and modify it to perform just as well as a high end for less than half the cost. There isn't a machine in my shop that hasn't been modified/upgraded.
As for machines arriving from half way across world with issues (or even down the street for that matter), most machines purchased new require some assembly/set-up/ & truing. Even moving a machine to a different location in your shop will require re-calibration.
There was a comment earlier in the thread about a machine arriving with loose fasteners on the motor. Would you really want to throw the switch on a new machine without going through it first? Would you really expect that you could just plug in a machine and go when it has traveled half way around the world? Have you ever been to a large shipping terminal and seen the fork lift drivers in action?
There is a human element to all machines - people have to assemble them in the factories. Expect variances between machines, and certainly don't expect turn-key out of the crate.
Buy the best machine you can afford....jump in and get your hands dirty, and make it the way it needs to be to suit your needs.
Member
"My table saw fence alignment is less than 1/2 of .001 front to back of the saw and in parallel alignment with the blade and miter slot.........measured with dial indicator and while I know that is overkill for woodworking, it is just how I like my equipment to operate."
Roger. This is a dangerous practice. There should be a few thou. clearance on the outfeed side. This prevents the stock from being pinched & reduces the chance of kickback! Ron.
Member
So now it seems to become “Kill the messenger”, just because someone thinks the new machines arrived in bad conditions, and this should not be so with the assurance that every crate was going to be opened and the machines inspected ??
Maybe to gullible to believe everything that is being promised, as these things have happened before, and yes I personally would think that you get what you pay for, maybe.
Have fun and take care
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