Wooden Ladder Shop

[Phil Thien]

The wood rungs are varnished. The user touches no actual wood while using the ladder. You know nothing about the composition of the varnish being used (nor do I). Some are NOT slippery when wet. So,your supposition is not relevant.

One firehouse forum has a member that works in a house with wooden ladders. They are now using Watco Danish Oil to protect them.

That may just be in the houses, though, they may receive some other treatment at the ladder shop.

So after a fire they're inspected at the house and receive some maintenance that may not be ideal, but is intended to protect the ladder.

BTW, not my supposition, if you read those forums you will find guys saying the rungs can get very slippery when wet, and the aluminum ladder rungs offer a much better grip.

[Phil Thien]

Here is an interesting read, BTW, quoting the president of the largest fire ladder manufacturer in the country (right here in Oshkosh, WI). The guy is an unqualified expert and talks about all these things.

http://www.duosafety.com/magazine.html

It is pretty interesting.

I had pasted it here but it formatted poorly, go read it at the site I link above.

But here is a tidbit:

"The reason we dumped wood ladders in 1988 was due to the spotted owl crisis," Schwab says. "Lumber went up by a factor of seven that year and when you start calculating the prices you quickly figure out that the cost of a 24-footer would have been $3,000. Nobody is going to pay $3,000 for a 24-foot two-section ladder when an aluminum one passes all the requirements, meets all the codes, is basically considered the workhorse of the industry, and it's worth $600."

Of the 27 employees Schwab has employed in the shop area, the same former barrel factory where his father started the business 70 years ago, all but one are busy building aluminum ladders, he says, noting that the one remaining constructs fiberglass ladders.

"We started using fiberglass in 1973, but fiberglass isn't that popular. Why? Because it is heavy," he says. "It's like any other engineered product. You figure out what it has to do, what the load capacity is and the materials you're using and pretty soon you'll be saying 'It weighs how much? Yeiowee.'"

The only reason fiberglass ladders exist is to avoid electrical hazard, he explains, adding there really isn't anything that is 100 percent safe and non-conductive.

"Anyone who thinks there is such a thing as a non-conductive ladder is naive," says Schwab who has served on the National Fire Prevention Administration (NFPA) ladder subcommittee for 25 years. "If you lay a portable ladder into the power lines, just like if you put an aerial device into the power lines, there is so much voltage, you're dead, I'm sorry." The best way to avoid electrocution is to simply stay away from the power lines, he says.

"Just get out of there and don't do it," Schwab says, noting that proper ladder training will save more lives than a non-conductive ladder.

[Jim Koepke]

None of their published budgets have the data. They might not keep track of it.

I am sure they keep track of it. I found information on line listing the SFFD cost for "support services" which covers the ladder shop.

SUPPORT SERVICES manages the SFFD's facilities, equipment and vehicle fleet, and is responsible for all maintenance, repairs and capital improvements. Support Services also oversees the Department's Ladder Manufacturing Shop and the Brass Shop, where nozzles, fittings and High Pressure Reducing Valves are created.

Sounds like what you are saying is you do not have the information needed to verify your claims.

I am also curious as to your qualifications for determining the needs of a fire department half a continent away from where you happen to be.

This won't happen to a member of the SFFD:

http://www.philly.com/philly/news/lo...ower_line.html

I spent a few minutes watching the video again. It isn't produced by the San Francisco fire department. I also fail to pick up on the "underlying political propaganda" you seem to find in this short piece on the last wooden fire ladder shop in America.

It is similar to the argument of buying a century old hand plane and fixing it up as compared to buying a new 'premium' plane from LN or LV. They all have their merits. Buying a new plane may seem a waste of money to some. It is doubtful you could convince many of the new owners of such a notion.

jtk

[Phil Thien]

This won't happen to a member of the SFFD:

http://www.philly.com/philly/news/lo...ower_line.html

"Anyone who thinks there is such a thing as a non-conductive ladder is naive," says Schwab who has served on the National Fire Prevention Administration (NFPA) ladder subcommittee for 25 years. "If you lay a portable ladder into the power lines, just like if you put an aerial device into the power lines, there is so much voltage, you're dead, I'm sorry." The best way to avoid electrocution is to simply stay away from the power lines, he says.

I spent a few minutes watching the video again. It isn't produced by the San Francisco fire department. I also fail to pick up on the "underlying political propaganda" you seem to find in this short piece on the last wooden fire ladder shop in America.

What can I say, some people can't read between the lines...

It is similar to the argument of buying a century old hand plane and fixing it up as compared to buying a new 'premium' plane from LN or LV. They all have their merits. Buying a new plane may seem a waste of money to some. It is doubtful you could convince many of the new owners of such a notion.

jtk

Reframe that into a debate on government employees buying economical (but serviceable) iron planes vs. making wood-body planes at several times the cost, and you have a good analogy.

[Jebediah Eckert]

I watched the video and enjoyed it, I then commented. Since then I haven't paid attention but saw the post count getting high. I Should have "X'ed" it out but I had to know........

Shame, shame, shame on you Jim (OP) trying to force your political agenda on us veiled as a video you thought woodworkers would find interesting. I fell for it, you got me.....

[Garrett Ellis]

Shame, shame, shame on you Jim (OP) trying to force your political agenda on us veiled as a video you thought woodworkers would find interesting. I fell for it, you got me.....

seriously! now i feel betrayed. all of the wonderful content and help that jim has posted over the years, just a front for his commie ways. i now must go back and read in between the lines of all of his posts to see what kind of man he really is.

[Jim Koepke]

What can I say, some people can't read between the lines...

I see, the part where people make up nonsense based on their own paranoia and then accuse others of promoting such a fabricated position.

Shame, shame, shame on you Jim (OP) trying to force your political agenda on us veiled as a video you thought woodworkers would find interesting. I fell for it, you got me.....

I am sorry Jebediah. Likewise I too fell down this rabbet (typo, but it made me chuckle) hole by simply clicking a link.

Actually the extrapolation of this is San Francisco, California therefore it must be some liberal plot to exploit the people and waste their money nonsense has sent me on a most enjoyable journey digging deeper into the subject.

Before this my knowledge did not include how many fire stations/engine companies there are in San Francisco or the number of ladders they have.

Though my knowledge of the power lines for the Municipal Railway Company of San Francisco carrying 600 volts DC goes back to my days of working for another transit company in the area.

My knowledge of wood being able to conduct electricity under certain conditions goes back to before reaching my teens. The knowledge of aluminum being a better conductor than wood under any normally encountered condition is pretty much common knowledge to all but a reality resistant few.

jtk

[george wilson]

Yabbut,WHAT power lines? Super high voltage long distance power lines or those between buildings and the street.
there is a
teeny bit of difference in the voltage between those types. I doubt the SF firemen are trying to put out fires on high voltage cross country power lines.

I am sure the fire dept. would have enough sense to wrap the wooden rungs in abrasive strip material to increase the grip if they thought it necessary.

I agree the round rungs would kill my feet,but those guys are a lot younger than I am,and in better shape!!

[Jim Koepke]

Yabbut,WHAT power lines? Super high voltage long distance power lines or those between buildings and the street.
there is a
teeny bit of difference in the voltage between those types. I doubt the SF firemen are trying to put out fires on high voltage cross country power lines.

George,

San Francisco is chris crossed with 600 VDC lines for their transit system. The wires run through almost every neighborhood. When the great public transit dismantling started after WW II, the people in San Francisco didn't fall for the "quieter gasoline powered busses" that were trying to get the electric systems replaced.

My memory is a bit vague on this, my recollection is anything above 480 volts is considered high voltage. It may be even 480 V is considered high voltage in the procedures required by those who work with it.

Being involved in the transit industry, it was interesting to research the systems of the early era of public transit in the area.

jtk

[Phil Thien]

Yabbut,WHAT power lines? Super high voltage long distance power lines or those between buildings and the street.
there is a
teeny bit of difference in the voltage between those types. I doubt the SF firemen are trying to put out fires on high voltage cross country power lines.

I am sure the fire dept. would have enough sense to wrap the wooden rungs in abrasive strip material to increase the grip if they thought it necessary.

I agree the round rungs would kill my feet,but those guys are a lot younger than I am,and in better shape!!

The "cross country power lines" aren't the only ones carrying extremely high voltages. Even the lines in my backyard, carried on typical "telephone poles," are carrying 12,000-volts.

SF Muni devices use 600-volt overhead wires, BUT, power is distributed to those lines at much higher voltages and is transformed to 600.

Wood isn't an insulator, it is a poor conductor. But as voltage increases, or the wood gets wet...

I think the interview/article I linked above hits the important point: Training is more important than wood.

[Phil Thien]

I'm going to stop responding, you guys can have at it.

I'm just going to finish with a couple of points: The ladders are undeniably beautiful. I see their utility and serviceability, as well.

And I'll concede some benefit to wood, even if it isn't as great a benefit as most people may think.

While I do feel this is a waste, it certainly isn't of the magnitude that would cause me to lose sleep. If my local fire department were to decide to switch to wood, you might get some eye rolls from me, that is about it. At all times, where firefighters and policemen are concerned, we should go as far as we can to protect the lives that serve us. I don't mind spending more, I just want a good return, I want it to mean something.

If someone starts a thread depicting mail being delivered by mounted carrier through some city of significant population, I reserve the right to object.

[Jason Roehl]

I'm just curious how many in this thread know how close a ladder in contact with the ground has to get to various line voltages to initiate an arc...

[Jim Koepke]

I'm just curious how many in this thread know how close a ladder in contact with the ground has to get to various line voltages to initiate an arc...

If the ladder is nonconductive there wouldn't be an arc no matter how close it came to a power line.

jtk

[Jason Roehl]

If the ladder is nonconductive there wouldn't be an arc no matter how close it came to a power line.

jtk

Kind of a moot point when you're dealing with firefighters spraying water everywhere. A wet ladder will provide a path to ground no matter what its material of construction.

[Malcolm Schweizer]

I'm just curious how many in this thread know how close a ladder in contact with the ground has to get to various line voltages to initiate an arc...

I have always been told ten feet. I did not see it personally, but my father-in-law (roofer) has seen people shocked by a line arcing to a ladder in close proximity to but not touching the line. Even an insulated line can arc through a weak spot in the insulation that you may not see.