Stair Case building question

[Greg Brophey]

I am building a new staircase in my home and it has open sides on both ends for first four steps. The right side is open all the way up with an intermediate landing where it then makes a turn right. I am using a double bullnose starting step and starting volutes for each end. My issue is that on left side my handrail will terminate into the opening to the other room's side. If this is centered in this 4 1/2" thick side, my baluster center line will be 2" off from one side to the other, as the skirtboard on that side goes up that side of wall. I keep the baluster lined up with outside edge of skirtboard. However, by terminating handrail into side opening, I have no other choice but to move centerline over 2" for the left side volute location as well as handrail location. Any thoughts on this as I have no other choice? I could see if the stair company makes a fitting for this 2" offset, but don't see how this would work out even if I used it for balusters that may end up in this area. I could move other side over 2" to match, but hate to reduce width of steps any further than they are now as the centerline for handrail can actually be put anywhere, but I don't like to loose 2 more inches in width on these.

One further question addresses correct way to apply side nosing. I made the treads and risers out of quarter sawn white oak. Applied nosing to front and now need to put on open sides. I cannot use any tongue and groove method often used on tables where exposed end grain shows as too late to do something like this. I was planning on gluing miter and using one or two bisquits in this tread and screwing and gluing by front miter tight and using elongated holes in other spot or spots with no glue. Will finish out with plugs over screws. Do you think this will stay put over time mitigating expansion issues which should be minimal due to type and cut of wood being used? Thanks for any and all suggestions and opinions.

[Brian W Smith]

Greg,it could be too late for a lot of your issues,but am sure you'll get it worked out.

Reason for post(ha)....when designing stair systems........We always figure post location first and foremost.Because that location,and remember...you can't have two posts in the same spot,dictates where the rails go.Now we know where the rail centerline is,we can figure the ba-loosters....which logically tells us where our nosers need to be.Further,because posts carry the brunt of the rail loading,they need to be buried into the framing.This is infinitely easier BEFORE the other,attendant parts are put in.Same goes for landings......Blankety-blank contractors,and to a very slightly lessor degree,architects....really don't have a freakin clue on these measures.So,the earlier you can catch "problems" the better.

I grew up in the biz,yadayada.Used to figure new folks needed instruction from the ground(footers) up.And many folks still look at it this way.The problem however is that once projects(complicated stairs,libraries,etc) get under way,it's often hard to,"back the truck up".So,over the years have modified the way or approach that newbs should learn.It is in a lot of ways,better,to learn your finishing skills and techniques FIRST.Then you back your thinking up to get the parts ready for that next discipline.For instance,if a contractor or architect learned what we require in the finishing/alignment of stairs,they would understand how the framing needs to be.

Right now,I'd say on any broken(offset,landings,multiple floors)stair system,would give the odds @ maybe 4-1(being nice)....that the framing/layout/basic engineering is wrong.But then ,most stair systems these days are single,straight runs and it dosen't show up.We've done curved stair systems that went fully 3 floors.Done "flying" wood systems in commercial applications,both new and historic......The more complicated the system,the more chances are someone is going to drop the ball.Early intervention by the stair co is required.

Sorry for the novel but,it is a very deep subject.The best study on stairs that I've found is accessible historic places like Williamsburg....and other like minded places.You just can't get the proper "scale" looking in books,even though they really are a requirement.It's like you need to be sitting,staring at the the system @ Carter's Grove with a cpl books in your lap.Each pce has a proper placement,and it's a cumulative effect....mess one up,and they all are off.it takes time,patience and skill.Best,BW

[Jim Andrew]

I have seen some interesting ways to terminate a rail into a wall. When the rail splits on a corner, have seen where the rail was cut so the part on the outside extended past a few inches, and was screwed to the wall. Have also seen where a circle block was applied to the end of the wall, let extend out so the workman just cut a piece to match on the outside. Both ways took some effort and were successful, as when I observed they were years old. I once did a similar stair, open a few steps but just on one side, and the floor was concrete. So I drilled a hole in the floor in the center of the newel post, used a metal peg for the newel to set on. Then I put bolts through the newel into the stair jack. That open stair survived 3 boys growing up and now grandkids.

[Jerry Miner]

Greg--- Any chance you could post a sketch of your basic layout?

Nosing attachment: The "traditional" method is to glue the miter, dry-nail the rest. A couple dry-fit biscuits could certainly help keep things aligned. Screws in over-sized holes could work, too. The "advantage" of nails is that the steel is softer and can tolerate a little wood movement

[Ben Grunow]

Would like to see a pic too. Keep the rail centered on the wall in the opening or it will bother you forever.

Open treads are best if the nose is milled on them and the miter cut into the grain not an applied bullnose (no biggie) and returns dry nailed with a biscuit or 2 if you want. Glue them into the return not the end grain of the tread. JMO

[Greg Brophey]

Thanks for replies and suggestions. I have fitted all returns today and will set them tomorrow as it is supposed to rain again. Yes, this was a wall opening change that position of rail could not be changed due to cost of complete removal of existing stairs. My first inclination was to make both sides the same off skirtboard for baluster centerpoint, and may still do it. However, do not like to loose those extra inches in width on steps. It is only three full steps and the difference from side to side may not be noticeable. I knew it was an issue so no surprises. Yes, I agree if I don't center it on wall I will regret it. I enlarged the opening between two rooms and this caused the issue of going into center of opening with rail. I am using a pile of beautiful quarter sewn flecked white oak wood as they cost nothing so stair nosing had to be glued on and installed, as this had 2 by 10's as treads and I just put 3/4" over the treads and glued on the front nosing. yes pictures would have helped. Sorry. I will post photos when I get my camera back so you all can see as I am not a stair man. I am a carpenter by trade. I appreciate what you stair professionals do in this trade and thank your input. I can build these simple stairs like this L shaped here, but would never attempt a complicated set that had any radius or complex wreathing. I figured that is what most would say on the nosing issue but wanted to see if anyone had any secret glues or fasteners to use, that is all. This is a tuff area to keep from moving through the years and hope mine stays stable from all the old stairs I have seen.
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[Ben Grunow]

Could you widen the wall so until the center line of the wall is on the center of the existing rail holes? (probably just a couple sheets of drywall and some furring strips ?)

[Greg Brophey]

Hi Ben,

Unfortunately I should have provided more detailed info or photos but couldn't. I put two photos of this in below. One is not mine and the other is one I found on my computer showing where steps were before opening up wall. No this wouldn't have solved the problem as the only way to bring it back to center for side of skirtboard would have been to cut steps off about 2" on left side which couldn't be done as steps were already built along wall. There really should have been a 2" offset to compensate for this and knew it but figured I would make right side the same. Then I didn't like idea of losing stair width that much so now am wondering what the consensus is here for what would look best knowing it is not right but best I will do at this point. Here is a photo of a stair, not like mine at all but exactly what I am referring to on this one side. See how it was moved over 2" to allow for this centering? Now my skirtboard on this side is actually coming overtop the drywall where it was opened up. I made the mistake plain and simple in not catching this beforehand and working it out by cutting through these steps and horses. Although I am not sure I would have gone through all that trouble to do it, but now I either have to lose those 2" on each side by moving handrail centerline over to make them even on each side, or just leave the one side go and keep the stairs wider. I just guess I am looking for a vote here on what you pro's think would look best knowing it is a definite rookie mistake or lack of wanting to cut into the staircase that was built ahead of time. This is the problem with coming back later to finish something, as you forget what you had planned to do. At least I do. It is not any big mistake but something that I need some support with on how to finish it off. I will be doing over the post on right side which is open all the way up, an intermediate landing then to balcony with hallway railing above on both sides. Because of the way you enter the front foyer, you do not meet these steps head on as they are too close to front. I doubt this difference would be picked up by normal eye. I called stair company up and asked for a fitting and don't even want to write here what they said that 2" offset would cost for railing connection, as that was my other option. I had no idea it would cost that much.

IMG_7373-1.jpg

[Bradley Gray]

I would be way more concerned with safe travel on the stair than how it looks. I would wall mount a hand rail on the right (ascending) to allow constant contact.

[Greg Brophey]

Bradley,

Yes that is going to be happening on right side. I am referring to left side only, as right side is continuous handrail from start to finish. Left side only goes to wall and I am sure a photo would have helped everyone and I am sorry for any confusion on this.

It is open L shaped to right stair case with intermediate landing and will have two starting newels with volutes, and intermediate newel on right side turning right and will have a balcony newel at top with a railing continuing on to hallway upstairs end. I did not mean to suggest that the right side would be not continuous. It will be all the way to upstairs hallway balcony. However my question was more in line with resetting the centerline of right side same as left as I have shown in the photo the way it should have been. I screwed up and did not allow this offset as you see. This made the two centerlines different with one being standard with balusters even with skirtboard, and left-side balusters being set in 2" for first 3 steps, then handrail just stops on inside of left wall at around the fourth step and I would use a returned end to stop it. Actually I would appreciate some feedback on this idea as I think this may look good and keep balusters more in line with skirboard set off original screw up and set to middle of wall.

That left side is not continuous and there is no need for it to be. However, the forgoing idea I mentioned above was that I can buy a fitting that has a 5" center to center curve in it and this would negotiate around that left wall and I could end it on the inside of left wall or carry it up to intermediate landing as a secondary rail and stop it there. I really doubt I will do that but that will keep alignment of both sides starting out even at skirtboard centerline. What do you pros think of using a S curve fitting (5" turn center to center) to go around wall? Just a thought, but it will work and this S curve can be bought to go left or to right. I do believe that would work but not sure about doing it. What is everyone's thoughts on this idea? I can negotiate the left side centerline of baluster to make this work dead on, and it would not be off even an inch if not right on but I would have to add a small piece of rail and a couple of wall brackets for handrail section on the left side of wall going up to intermediate landing or just stop it as soon as I turn the corner and attach to wall with wall bracket instead of mounting to center to wall. I could use a returned end fitting to stop it as soon as I mount to wall bracket. I am not sure that balusters can continue up in line properly though, and would have to give it some thought and looking at. That would be the only issue that would prevent this secondary thought.







04 LH S-Curve
05 RH S-Curve 5" Center to Center (Right Hand Shown)






04 LH S-Curve
05 RH S-Curve 5" Center to Center (Right Hand Shown)


04 LH S-Curve
05 RH S-Curve 5" Center to Center (Right Hand Shown)