Best modern day substitute for 100 year old poplar

[Lee Schierer]

Jim

if you just happen to be in a renovation restoration of an old New England home, and maybe doing moulding. You might be looking for Tulip Wood and not Poplar.
Tulip wood was widely used throughout New England for window and door trim.

What you are referring to is Tulip Poplar, which is common in New England and Pennsylvania. It gets large Tulip shaped flowers in the spring and the leaves look like a tulip viewed from the side.tulip poplar.jpg The bees like them and it makes a rather dark colored honey. This is the same poplar that has the green, brown and purple streaks in it.

[Jim Becker]

Jim

if you just happen to be in a renovation restoration of an old New England home, and maybe doing moulding. You might be looking for Tulip Wood and not Poplar.
Tulip wood was widely used throughout New England for window and door trim.

Names can be confusing. Tulip Poplar is the common species used for furniture...it's a member of the magnolia family, rather than the various poplar species that are members of the cottonwood family. Tulip poplar has been used for centuries, especially in the NE of the US because it grows in quantity as well as tall and straight. Many folks think it's only a "paint grade" wood (and much produced today may be best used that way), but it's actually quite workable for dyed finishes and will mimic other close-grained species nicely for furniture projects on a budget. I have a huge amount of this material from my own property and often use it for furniture projects.

It's not the best wood for outdoor exposure because it's not moisture/weather resistant...certainly no better than pine.

[Peter Quinn]

I wonder if you could contact a local mill or one in a region that mills poplar and see if you could specify rift or quarter sawn boards. This would push you to larger oldrr trees of the diameter necessary to yield the appropriate widths, and you end up with a relatively stable product. I have not regularly seen poplar quartersawn which is why I'm thinking it might be custom ordered that way. Might have to buy 1K BF but it's not particularly expensive material to begin width.

On the historical accuracy thing I've always been at odds with the "preservationist" mentality. Not sure that luxury existed 100-200 years ago. Imagine if it did? Our ancestors made everything from stone, so we should make our home and rail cars from carved stone....My guess is they didn't arrive at poplar because it was the ultimate species for strength, or durability, or rot resistance. It was cheap and plentiful, easy to work and light weight. The idea that one must chase trees from a bygone era in the name of some very recent historical accuracy convention barrels me. Why not apply the original design standards to the sub structure....best thing we can get that is cheap and plentiful. Save the painstaking restoration for the facade. Copy the building techniques, using the best materials available today.

maybe I'm over sensitive on the issue. Recently Zoning threatened to turn my 100-150 year old neighborhood into a historical district....we chased them off with pitchforks, and lawyers, and lawyers with pitchforks. Last thing I needed was some old ladies with weekend homes in another neighborhood deciding my home was a museaum whose maintenance and building products, and color, they could dictate!

[David Kumm]

There shouldn't be much difference between poplar trees grown in the wild today or 100 years ago. Poplar generally begins to rot from the inside out after 40-50 years - or less- so all trees are relatively young when harvested. Dave

[Jim Mackell]

On the historical accuracy thing I've always been at odds with the "preservationist" mentality. Not sure that luxury existed 100-200 years ago. Imagine if it did? Our ancestors made everything from stone, so we should make our home and rail cars from carved stone....My guess is they didn't arrive at poplar because it was the ultimate species for strength, or durability, or rot resistance. It was cheap and plentiful, easy to work and light weight. The idea that one must chase trees from a bygone era in the name of some very recent historical accuracy convention barrels me. Why not apply the original design standards to the sub structure....best thing we can get that is cheap and plentiful. Save the painstaking restoration for the facade. Copy the building techniques, using the best materials available today.

While I personally agree with you, our museum doesn't. Need to search for old growth poplar and compare cost to QSWO. Money does sometimes influence the final decision.

[Jim Mackell]

There shouldn't be much difference between poplar trees grown in the wild today or 100 years ago. Poplar generally begins to rot from the inside out after 40-50 years - or less- so all trees are relatively young when harvested. Dave

There is a substantial difference in the strength of the wood. The poplar sheathing helps stabilize the body and prevent the car from racking. It's our considered opinion that new wood won't cut the mustard!

[John Schweikert]

I find a large amount of contradicting information in this discussion.

This is from loghome.com. I highlighted an interesting sentence.

"Yellow Poplar - Liriodendron tulipifera
Common names: Poplar, tulip poplar, tulipwood, hickory poplar.
Grown: Connecticut and New York, southward to Florida and westward to Missouri.
Harvested: South.
Characteristics: Sapwood white, several inches thick. Heartwood yellowish brown. Generally straight-grained, uniform in texture. Old-growth timber moderate in weight, softness; moderately low in bending strength; low shock resistance; moderately large shrinkage when dried, not difficult to season, stays in place well after seasoning. Second-growth timber heavier, harder, stronger than old-growth timber. Low decay resistance.
Approximate R-value per inch: 1.13
Suitability: Not generally available in commercial quantities."

[Mel Fulks]

I had not thought about it before but David is exactly right, huge poplars around here are less than one hundred years old. Since the wood will be covered with painted canvas any material would be adequate ;would not be the first time a museum has substituted an unseen material for practical reasons. I would even bet that that some of the original wood is nothing special. Maybe you people are looking ahead to the tourist movie introduction and the professional baritone narrator describing the "awesome commitment to accuracy." It is my considered opinion ....that the time allowed for the project and the budget are way too big.

[David Kumm]

Let me clarify. I'm from Wisconsin and everything is slow growth here. Dave

[Bradley Gray]

I have repaired a number of American Country furniture pieces made of old "green" yellow poplar. Clear redwood has the same density and similar grain, believable under a finish. On a car I would think the weight of white oak could make the vehicle top heavy and the hardness wouldn't work with tacks to attach canvas.

[Dan Neuhaus]

I would tend to agree with Dave on the strength of old vs new growth yellow/tuplip poplar. Yellow Poplar is an extremely fast growing species and very competitive. I worked on a project not long ago where we replaced some 100+ year old poplar barn floor planking and we used green rough sawn poplar and there was a negligible difference in weight or strength of the new versus the old. There may be some visual difference in the grain straightness but I doubt it will affect strength. That same project was on a 1000 acre estate I managed that was mostly tulip poplar/oak. Over the years we had many storms bring down very old poplars and the wood structure wasn't particularly unique as compared to say old growth pine or fir. Most of the strength perception of old growth wood is related to softwoods. If your set on using poplar I'd choose the straightest grain you can find and make sure there is plenty of air flow to dry out or use an exceptional exterior paint.

[Curt Harms]

[QUOTE=Peter Quinn;2441356
................................................
maybe I'm over sensitive on the issue. Recently Zoning threatened to turn my 100-150 year old neighborhood into a historical district....we chased them off with pitchforks, and lawyers, and lawyers with pitchforks. Last thing I needed was some old ladies with weekend homes in another neighborhood deciding my home was a museaum whose maintenance and building products, and color, they could dictate![/QUOTE]

There was a time (mid-late '80s) when being in a historic district was a useful thing. There were tax credits available for restoration work in historic districts. I don't know that any such benefits exist today.

[Larry Edgerton]

On the historical accuracy thing I've always been at odds with the "preservationist" mentality. Not sure that luxury existed 100-200 years ago. Imagine if it did? Our ancestors made everything from stone, so we should make our home and rail cars from carved stone....My guess is they didn't arrive at poplar because it was the ultimate species for strength, or durability, or rot resistance. It was cheap and plentiful, easy to work and light weight. The idea that one must chase trees from a bygone era in the name of some very recent historical accuracy convention barrels me. Why not apply the original design standards to the sub structure....best thing we can get that is cheap and plentiful. Save the painstaking restoration for the facade. Copy the building techniques, using the best materials available today.

maybe I'm over sensitive on the issue. Recently Zoning threatened to turn my 100-150 year old neighborhood into a historical district....we chased them off with pitchforks, and lawyers, and lawyers with pitchforks. Last thing I needed was some old ladies with weekend homes in another neighborhood deciding my home was a museaum whose maintenance and building products, and color, they could dictate!

I had the historical society come by on the Italianate that is on my website when it was about done. It was one arrogant old guy leading a few old hens and explaining everything as he went. He said it was wonderful to see one restored exactly as it was originally and blathered on a bunch of whoey to impress the old hens.

He didn't ask, and I neglected to tell him, that all the parts including the columns were milled out of Versatex.

I have a CEO of a large corp. trying to get it cleared for me to come up to Mackinaw Island and start making reproduction parts for his two houses, but the historical society will not allow Versatex. He owns two houses next to each other, and lives in the one that is not being painted on the odd year. The climate on the island is about as bad as you could cook up if you tried as far as what it does to wood and he is sick of painters, but no dice. So for now people get to look at yellow scaffold?

[Larry Edgerton]

There shouldn't be much difference between poplar trees grown in the wild today or 100 years ago. Poplar generally begins to rot from the inside out after 40-50 years - or less- so all trees are relatively young when harvested. Dave

David is correct. At least in our part of the country there are no 450 year old poplars. Before 50 years they are done, kaput, finito, so that makes a 50 year old poplar in my neighborhood an old growth tree I suppose. I think you are looking for unicorn feathers. I read what the net had to say about poplar, and I would really like to see a 450 year old poplar.