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Thread: joinery strength tests

  1. #1

    joinery strength tests

    A month or two ago, I posted about my use for years and over 70 projects, of a beadlock jig and said how well it worked for me and that it was on sale at Rockler. I called it the "poor woman's Domino" . Last night I was reading old Fine Woodworking magazines and ran across a test they did on all methods of joinery. What I found VERY interesting was the tests done on the Dowelmax, the Beadlock and the Domino. I thought ya'll might be interested.
    The list shows pounds of force to break the joint:
    BEADLOCK 836
    DOWELMAX 759
    DOMINO 597

    Interesting, YES? So if strength and $$$$ matters, the Beadlock is a heck of a choice.
    FWW Jan 2009
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  2. #2
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    Did they test traditional wood joints as well? If so how did they compare?
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    We're the sizes of the loose tenons the same or close? How many dowels, spacing of dominos, etc.
    It's tough for us engineer types to my have all the information.

  4. #4
    It's worth googling to find the pdf entitled joinery_failure.pdf. It's an interesting read. Wood did a similar test but I couldn't find that on-line, just a video. The Fine Woodworking test used 8x2.5 inch pieces of cherry 3/4 thick. The strongest joint was a halflap which tested at 1603 lbs. A bridle joint was 1560, a splined miter 1498, a 3/8 mortise and tenon 1444 and a floating mortise and tenon 1396. A 5/16 M&T was 988 and a 1/4 was 717 lbs. I found the M&T results interesting. They suggest we should make the tenon 1/2 and not 1/3 the thickness. The commentary in the article seems reasonably balanced and notes that the stress they tested is not the only consideration. A half lap wouldn't resist a twisting type load very well, I suspect. I think the low results of the domino relate to it's width. I think they used a 10mm but I also think it was 25mm wide. That looks like it is not much more than half the width of the M&T joints. The dowel joints came out well but they used 3 so the area is greater than the domino. The results correlate well with the amount of long grain gluing area - except for possibly the splined miter. The miter wasn't that big, 1/4 thick by maybe 3/4 wide but it ran the length of the miter so it was pretty long. They just made up right angle pieces and pushed on the ends until the joint failed.

    Overall it is interesting and I think you can draw some conclusions but I wouldn't say that the domino was exactly dismissed by the results. It does indicate that the lack of multiple widths of the little loose tenons could affect the joint strength for some material sizes, perhaps.

    In my googling I found another test where the author claimed to test tight, loose, and normal fitting M&T joints and found little difference in strength. I also found that of interest. That would suggest that the really nice mortises the Domino machine makes are not a big advantage in joint strength (just speed and perhaps accuracy).

    Pocket screws tested at 698 and a single biscuit at 545lbs. I wouldn't rate a pocket screw joint stronger than a domino but that is the test result they got. But other applications of dominos are highly likely to test differently. They used one 10mmx50mm and might have squeezed another in likely making the joint far stronger.

  5. #5
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    Jim, I'd seen that but it was a great refresher. Fascinating that the cope&stick is weaker than the butt joint!

  6. #6
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    I use the Dowelmax and so have been interested in strength tests using that jig versus other methods. Every reasonably scientific experiment I have ever seen showed joints created with the Dowelmax using the methodology from their website yielded joints that were the equal of most other methods and slightly superior to Domino floating tenons. I don't remember as much about Beadlock joints but I recall they were also very highly rated as well. In spite of this, I wish I had a Domino due to the speed and convenience. People need to remember that if a joint is strong enough to survive the application in which it is used, then it is, by definition, good enough. In applications where appearance is not of very great importance, like shop cabinets, I mostly use pocket screws and I have never had a joint fail.

  7. #7
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    I've seen many examples of this kind of tests over the years and found that they are rarely consistent. One says joint A is strongest, another joint B... From reading all these tests, I've come to some skeptical conclusions. People don't want an engineering analysis, they want a single number or an A,B,C ranking. So the tests are oversimplified. People who like a particular joinery technique tend to pounce on any report that favors it and reject ones that favor another.

    - The tests rarely include enough samples to have any statistical significance and the reports don't talk about consistency from sample to sample. They only test a single species of wood and kind of glue, but interpret the outcome as applicable to all.

    - The loads at failure are nearly always greater than what you can expect in real life, so the differences are somewhat academic unless you design very spindly stuff. Other factors such as cost of the tooling, precision (consistency), and time spent making each joint may actually matter more than raw strength of a new joint. This is part of the point the OP was making.

    - The tests nearly always involve loading the joint in one plane parallel to its parts. Most often they make an "L" and squeeze the ends of the legs together or clamp one leg and push the end of the other one parallel to it, lever-fashion. That kind of test may be relevant for the seat frame to back leg of a chair when someone tilts back. But even for a chair, squirming around in the seat is more common and involves multi-directional loads including twisting.

    - The tests are always of a single, isolated joint. Real furniture is an assembly in which multiple joints often reinforce each other. For example, a rectangular frame with a joint at each corner is much stronger than you would conclude by testing one corner without the others. The stretchers between chair legs are added for a reason!

    - The greatest strength factor revealed by these tests seems to be the area of glued surface. With most joint systems you can increase the area by using more tenons, larger tenons, etc. But the tests assume that you are just using a particular system "out of the box" without analyzing the loads and adjusting the joinery. Comparing a 6mm domino with a 1" wide beadlock tilts the playing field!

    - A large fraction of the joints fail by the wood breaking adjacent to the joint. The amount of "meat" left in critical stress areas is therefore nearly as important as glue area.

    And after all that, my bottom line is that the tests don't tell you much about the way that real furniture joints fail. After years of aging, seasonal cycling of expansion and contraction, compression due to loads, etc., the joints become loose. Then they either just fall apart or break because the looseness puts all the stress in a small area.

  8. #8
    I wish someone would do a test of 'how much pounds-of-force are required for an application'.

    That is, for the average bench, or chair or table, how strong should the joint be? Then I could calculate how many dominos and dowels I need or whether a stronger joint is required.

    These discussions tend to get into the apples-to-oranges flawed design of the test. But I'm much more interested in knowing what's good enough for what application.

    I'm learning over a time, but it'd be neat to have a reference so I could be comfortable when building something new.

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    IMO these tests are minimally useful in practical application. Yes, you need strong joinery, however in my opinion it is far more important to know what stays strong over time. What will stay tight over time.
    Bumbling forward into the unknown.

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    Or to Prashun's point ... even the physics of furniture building ... how to calculate the stresses (and strength required) would be great. There has got to be a manual out there for that!

    Separately on testing, quite a number of years ago people came up with the idea of skinning their wooden racing sailboats with fabric and plastic to add strength and especially impact resistance. One of the boats subject to this had a large number of boats built, and a group of people in leadership position concerned about the impact to the class, especially if a chosen approach led to failure and loss of participation in racing. The question became ... what can we expect from the alternative solutions, and what's the best approach (combination of materials) leading to a durable durable. What is the solution everyone should follow! Some engineers at Union Carbide helped develop and run tests on the strengths of various combinations (cloth types and weights - dynel, glass, polyester) and adhesives (polyesters, epoxies). Replications of different woods representing the wood types used (mahogany, luan) in the boats were created, and the different combinations tested on a test stand. One could find fault in the approach (not enough replications, did it simulate actual use and aging) but the results were definitive. My recollection was that the bending oscillations before failure ranged from about 6 ... to 50,000. Hyperbole for sure. But testing of this ilk can provide directional (like focus groups for user experience) insights that in this case could likely have contributed to saving the class - which is racing and more popular than ever - today.

  11. #11
    Any testing regime needs to be repeatable, both for the tester, and for others trying to validate the result. Otherwise, the results are questionable. That's why most of the tests you see in mags are rather basic - even one-dimensional - as cited above. If the tester removes many of the variables and focuses their test on a single feature, it is MUCH easier to get repeatable results.

    As for the strength of a joint, I believe a great deal of any joint's strength comes from the width of joinery 'device' (2.5in. wide lap joint > 2in. beadlock > 25mm (1in.) Domino). You just have to figure out how to align the greatest width of the device with the greatest load to be applied to the joint. (...I'll let you know if I ever get close to this light-bulb moment.)
    Last edited by Malcolm McLeod; 08-13-2015 at 11:22 AM.

  12. #12
    For furniture, most of the joints are not under much of a load, so it doesn't matter a whole lot what kind of joinery you use.

    The one joint that is critical is on chairs (dining room type chairs to be specific) and the joint that joins the seat to the back. On that joint, the major factor in survival of the joint over time is the long-grain-to-long-grain surface area. And the reason is that the joinery fails by wood failure, and not by glue failure.

    On that joint, I would expect that a beadlock, domino, shop made loose tenon, or regular M&T would all work pretty much the same, provided they all had the same long-grain-to-long-grain surface area.

    The reason that dowels often fail in that joint is that you generally can't get the same surface area with dowels as with the above techniques.

    Mike
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    Take a look at the report to which Jim Dwight referred and you might feel differently. I was an engineer for a major car company and then a defense contractor for most of my career and have done countless studies using this kind of methodology. While some of your points have some validity, they do not negate the value if this sort of study. See comments in red.

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Baumgartner View Post
    I've seen many examples of this kind of tests over the years and found that they are rarely consistent. One says joint A is strongest, another joint B... From reading all these tests, I've come to some skeptical conclusions. People don't want an engineering analysis, they want a single number or an A,B,C ranking. So the tests are oversimplified. People who like a particular joinery technique tend to pounce on any report that favors it and reject ones that favor another.

    - The tests rarely include enough samples to have any statistical significance and the reports don't talk about consistency from sample to sample. They only test a single species of wood and kind of glue, but interpret the outcome as applicable to all.

    The study referred to above used 5 samples of each type of joint, which is enough to be statistically valid. I don't know whether the test was done, but an "ANOVA" calculation would have predicted whether the variation was due to sample variation or method variation or the percentage of each. In view of the credentials of the researcher, I would guess he did that or something similar. Although I would be interested in such an analysis, I would estimate that 99.95% of all the readers of this study would not. It is understandable why such information would be left out.

    It isn't reasonable to claim that if you only test one species of wood, one type of glue, etc. that you can't infer generally applicable information. In this case, the length, cross sectional area and spacing geometry of the connecting pieces, among other things, was what was being measured. Using multiple species of wood and multiple glue types would have dictated that several hundreds or thousands of samples would be needed and little additional information would have been gained. The important thing about this type of study is to define what it is you are measuring and eliminate all other variables.

    - The loads at failure are nearly always greater than what you can expect in real life, so the differences are somewhat academic unless you design very spindly stuff. Other factors such as cost of the tooling, precision (consistency), and time spent making each joint may actually matter more than raw strength of a new joint. This is part of the point the OP was making.

    Yes!! I often use pocket screws for non critical and non appearance applications.

    - The tests nearly always involve loading the joint in one plane parallel to its parts. Most often they make an "L" and squeeze the ends of the legs together or clamp one leg and push the end of the other one parallel to it, lever-fashion. That kind of test may be relevant for the seat frame to back leg of a chair when someone tilts back. But even for a chair, squirming around in the seat is more common and involves multi-directional loads including twisting.

    By definition, this particular study set out to measure the ability of various joints to withstand racking. That is the most important property you can measure. Racking resistance in one joint is what prevents the twisting forces you describe in other joints.

    - The tests are always of a single, isolated joint. Real furniture is an assembly in which multiple joints often reinforce each other. For example, a rectangular frame with a joint at each corner is much stronger than you would conclude by testing one corner without the others. The stretchers between chair legs are added for a reason!

    Refer to previous comment.

    - The greatest strength factor revealed by these tests seems to be the area of glued surface. With most joint systems you can increase the area by using more tenons, larger tenons, etc. But the tests assume that you are just using a particular system "out of the box" without analyzing the loads and adjusting the joinery. Comparing a 6mm domino with a 1" wide beadlock tilts the playing field!

    No. The greatest strength factor in these tests is the cross sectional area, the length and the spacing geometry of the connecting material. Surface area is a measure of glue strength and except in 2 or 3 predictable cases, (a ridiculous but joint being one) the glue didn't fail. The "playing field" as you call it, is defined by the joint the woodworker chooses. That is precisely what we want to know. In this particular study, the Beadlock joint was stronger than the Domino joint because the Domino limited the size and shape of the connecting material. That is valuable information.

    - A large fraction of the joints fail by the wood breaking adjacent to the joint. The amount of "meat" left in critical stress areas is therefore nearly as important as glue area.

    In nearly all cases, wood breakage near the joint is the root cause of the failure. The glue joint didn't fail and isn't relevant. At the expense of repeating myself, the greatest strength factor in these tests is the cross sectional area, the length and the spacing geometry of the connecting material. Obviously, that is related to the joinery method used. That is, in fact, the exact information we are looking for in this type of study.

    And after all that, my bottom line is that the tests don't tell you much about the way that real furniture joints fail. After years of aging, seasonal cycling of expansion and contraction, compression due to loads, etc., the joints become loose. Then they either just fall apart or break because the looseness puts all the stress in a small area.

    In the short term, studies like the one Jim mentioned will tell you a lot about whether a particular joint is adequate for a particular application and are, therefore, very useful in my opinion. In the long run (decades or centuries), the glue material becomes more and more important. There are tests which will artificially age assemblies to test for long term material failure. They are typically outside the scope of what a typical woodworking magazine can do.

  14. #14
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    I'd be much less comfortable about this sort of testing. (and i haven't read the linked piece, only others outside of the US) The devil is often in the detail. (or in the mind of those setting up the trial - and i'm not even sure that mags necessarily understand what's happening) I've seen other mags run tests which to my mind were either badly designed, or were purposely configured to favour one or other (well actually in the case i'm thinking of probably one) jointing system. (for a possible hint take a look and see which system has a large ad running in the same issue)

    There's multiple variables involved, but (a) one scenario sees a joint width/dimension picked that maximises the number of joining elements for one system, and disadvantages the other by placing it in the opposite situation (depending on the recommended pitching or recommended size of the dowels/tenons/whatever for the width and thickness of wood); and (b) lots depends on the direction in which the force is applied/the mode of loading of the joint versus the direction in which the particular joint is strongest.

    The classic T joint that gets tested by applying a hydraulic cylinder at right angles to the vertical leg of the T can as an example deliver a less than level playing field too. When the force is applied down close to the joint the jointing elements are placed in almost pure shear (simple sideways slip), if higher up the bar then it gets converted into mostly racking/a bending moment - which concentrates a heavy pull out force on to the first jointing element nearest to the side the load is applied to. The other end of the joint is subjected only to a simple compressive force as the bar tries to pivot around the furthest away corner. i.e. it bears on the horizontal, and the jointing element(s) at that end don't have to do very much at all).

    It's always the same. A chair for example at first sight has to carry certain absolute loads arising from the weight of the sitter, but it's probably in the end the tendency of people to lean back in/push chairs back and the like (loading it in heaven knows what ways) that eventually kills the joint. Think it's always necessary to either use a joint layout proven in the application, or else to very carefully work through the likely ways in which the joint will be loaded in use and which jointing method best handles this before making a selection.

    Simplistic tests of the sort normally used by and large load joints in one of many modes, and may not be representative of any useful reality at all. Joe Punter unfortunately has a tendency to respond at the level of stronger = better, and to hell with the details/precise format of the test - and most makers of jointing systems will probably be happy to grab anything (and to hell with the detail/qualifying the claim) that justifies them in making such a boast. There's to my mind in practice unlikely to be a single generic test using a single mode of loading that delivers better than a highly qualified suggestion of what a given joint is capable of in a given situation....
    Last edited by ian maybury; 08-13-2015 at 12:59 PM.

  15. #15
    As others have mentioend there are lots of flaws in this sort of testing, and claiming that one type is better than another because of the results. Pocket screws particularly seem to be hammered on because they aren't the strongest joint and alot of people look down on them as cheating.

    Two things to consider, the first is that you don't usually need a ridiculously strong joint. Frequently the joint is under minimal stress, and in those cases there is no point in going nuts making a ridiculously strong joint. There are also many times where even the strongest joint isn't going to survive, so its not worth the effort. Leaning back in a chair may be one of those situations. Lastly, there is no point in making a joint that is stronger than the surrounding material, you just have to keep it as strong.

    The next point is that there are many different types of strength. There is tensile strength, compressive strength, shear strength, bearing strength, fatigue strength, impact strength, and so on. While one joint may be strong in one method, it may not be in another.

    Therefore its worth recognizing the strengths and weakness of all the different types of joints, and not looking down on certain types just because their ultimate strength isn't as great as a mortise and tenon.

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