Adirondack Chairs - White Oak Alternative?

[Allan Speers]

Same experience, White oak requires significant attention (diligent varnishing) to prevent onset of black mold. Once it is in there, it is hard to beat.

This is good to know.

You would think there's some kind of chemical that you could soak into the Oak, before finishing, that would deter mold. Something like Sporicidin, or the like. No?

[Allan Speers]

I don't want to be overly critical, but I would do my own research if I were you. That list doesn't include White Oak, which is one of the strongest and more rot resistant woods you can buy. It does, however, list a number of species which are not generally regarded as woods for outside use. The other problem I see with that list is it contains a lot of species that are very hard to find or are prohibitively expensive for outdoor furniture applications.

I agree strongly that he should make his own list, which is why I mentioned the type of website I used to make mine.

White Oak is not on MY list, because as I wrote clearly, my personal most critical factors were rot resistance and STABILITY. Outdoor furniture will be subject to huge humidity & temperature changes, so it seems to me that stability should be a pretty important consideration. White Oak is OK, I guess (the mold issue notwithstanding) and it's great for fences, but it doesn't make my list.

I could be wrong. (this goes without saying.

[Curt Harms]

I've used both White Oak and WRC outdoors. The White Oak has been okay as far as durability but it bowed. This was a small sample so it may have just been the boards. I recently rebuilt the wings on an outdoor table built from WRC. I learned to not use grooves and tenons when there's bird seed on the top. The bird seed got in the grooves between the slats and held moisture. The rails and the ends of the slats rotted but the rest of the slat was fine. I cut the rotted part of the slats, a light planing to remove old finish and they look like new. Re-used 'em for the top on a smaller table.

If you think it necessary, could you go thicker? Like a full inch instead of 3/4" assuming such material is available? An outdoor wood that has interested me is locust, either black or honey. Sounds like it's heavy and requires sharp tools, very durable outdoors though. It doesn't seem all that easy to find and I don't know that it's available on the west coast.

[Bob Grier]

Ian,

These were made a few years ago and have been outside in Tacoma continuously although last winter they were covered with a vinyl fabric cover to help shed the rain. Winter before, they were on covered patio but exposed to blowing rain.

They are made of mahogany and sepele. Sepele on arms and legs and maybe some of slats. Cost was about $100 each. Screws are stainless and arm leg joints are glued. Finish was 2 or 3 coats of phen oil (something like that). I don't like the oil finish so much because when they are wet from the rain, it bleeds so have to be careful to not sit on them when wet. I think another type of oil than I used would have been better. Maybe tung or BLO. I have not added any oil yet but will next summer.

The reason I am responding here is that you are near Seattle and if you watch CraigsList near end of month, you will see advertisement for cutoffs sold by the pound sold by musical instrument manufacturer. That is where I got this lumber and then I resawed it to dimension I wanted and finish planed it. These 2 chairs are different dimension height and depth and shape of arm because lady wanted shorter and not so deep and with bigger arms so it fit her better and had more room for her drink.

I hope attachment works. Not sure.

[Bill ThompsonNM]

Personally, wouldn't make ANYTHING out of Red Cedar, because it is full of carcinogens. .

Hmm. 30 minutes of using Google fails to reveal ANYTHING implicating cedar as more carcinogenic than any other wood. Sounds like a rumor started by the pressure treated industry. Neither OSHA nor NIOSH have special regulations for cedar.

[Allan Speers]

Hmm. 30 minutes of using Google fails to reveal ANYTHING implicating cedar as more carcinogenic than any other wood. Sounds like a rumor started by the pressure treated industry. Neither OSHA nor NIOSH have special regulations for cedar.

You might actually be right.

I checked my database, and the three urls I had saved (from around 10 years ago) are mysteriously no longer active webpages. I can find anything currently, either, but back then there were articles galore about it, from reliable sources, too. Maybe it was one of those "viral" internet things - started as you say and then picked up & repeated by varous websites.

The EPA DOES currently consider Cedar oil to be toxic, and capable of causing lung & liver problems, but not in the amounts typically experienced in real-world use.

Still, it's a poison, and (from what I've read over the years) there seem to be more woodworkers badly affected by Cedar dust than any other species except maybe Cocobolo. It can also cause a type of asthma & skin rashes. see:
http://www.ehow.com/list_6958932_dan...shavings_.html

Cedar shaving are also known to make chickens very sick.

I personally will avoid the stuff.

[Allan Speers]

FWIW, and yes this artcle is suspect because it no longer exists online, but here is an excerpt that I had saved:

"Outdoor and marine woods have the ability to resist rot because they have natural poisons in them that kill or inhibit molds, bacteria, and bugs.

Cedar is a poor choice for playground equipment and decks as well for three reasons: poison, slivers, and weakness. The nice smell of cedar is a natural pesticide that kills mold, bugs, and bacteria. All good outdoor woods contain natural poisons, but not all of them release those poisons into the environment.
Cedar is a porous wood that continually releases its poisons into the air so that all living things near it are exposed and breathing poison all the time. When you touch it you get an even bigger dose. People who think it smells nice do not have allergies to it, nor long exposure. I have allergies and 2 seconds exposure to cedar makes me have sneezing fits. Prolonged exposure can cause allergies or even poisoning.

My cousin is a saw mill operator. He was healthy as a horse all his life and never had allergies, nor asthma. After a few years working with cedar, he developed a severe allergy to it and got cedar poisoning. He kept working with it because at that time he didn’t know why he was sick. He then developed severe asthma. He eventually went partly blind in one eye. He was diagnosed with severe cedar poisoning and allergies & asthma caused by exposure to cedar.

A nurse friend of mine had a pet rat. One day she bought cedar chips for the rat’s cage thinking it would smell nice. The rat was poisoned within a month and became very ill and went blind in both eyes. The rat had to be put to sleep due to cedar poisoning. Cedar also gives off a lot of slivers.

Cedar makes fine siding and roofing because no one is touching it or has their nose near it. Also, siding and roofing don’t require strength. As for a fence, cedar is fine, if not near a garden. But don’t put it where you’ll eat the cedar poison that leaches into the ground. The poison leaches out every time the cedar gets rained on. Cedar poisoning is a well know malady of woodworkers and loggers from breathing the sawdust. For the rest of us there is much less danger, but don’t think for a minute that cedar is non poisonous because it’s natural. More people get poisoned by cedar than by any other wood (including pressure treated wood). For those people with allergies, they would be very wise to avoid cedar. Even if you’re not allergic to it now, you can easily become allergic after repeated exposure."

[Prashun Patel]

If you think cedar is more or less safe than many other common woods, you may want to do some more research, and cite sources that use more specific toxicological and chemcal terms than "full of poisons".

I work with essential oil of cedar and other wood oils for a living. I have seen proper toxicological data on a few species of cedar. In fact, i prepare safety data sheets and regulatory documents for such mixtures, so my data sources are backed by research i and my company trust. This is not to say you should trust my opinion that its safe; it is to say when it comes to matters of toxicology, the most dangerous thing to your health is trusting what you read on the internet. Do your own research and dont trust uncited sources that read like blog posts.

[Bill Adamsen]

Bob:

Those are very sharp ... clean design and execution.

[Art Mann]

That quote doesn't sound like something a professional would write.

[Bill Adamsen]

You would think there's some kind of chemical that you could soak into the Oak, before finishing, that would deter mold. Something like Sporicidin, or the like. No?

Allan, adding chemicals - beyond the adhesives, fillers, dye coloring and finishing products I currently use (and consider to be "bad enough") - is beyond my interest level. White oak is a most marvelous wood. It steam bends beautifully, is quite flexible for simple lamination glue ups (compare to mahogany for instance) and while it has the reputation for not gluing up particularly well seems to glue up well enough in my experience. It is also very hard (Janka) and strong. In fact, it's the strength that seems to cause problems. For instance door thresholds on southern exposures ... the temperature and wet/dry cycling causes wood movement which is a force stronger than the glue. My challenge with White oak (and probably any species) is the common usage on high sun exposure boat parts (and the like - thresholds, railings) such as gunwales and rails with a clear varnish finish such as traditional Epifanes. When exposed to sun and physical wear, the finishes eventually break down. Breakdown exposes the wood to direct sun and water. Once the wood has been exposed to sun and water, it develops deep inclusions of dirt and mold. I've tried many products (Whink, bleach) to clean before refinishing. The most effective way is to replace the wood. Or maintain well before the breakdown occurs. Maintenance requires planning and forethought, a lot of labor and if deferred can sometimes remove the boat from service which may not be desirable.

I was looking for a photo of a six section lamination of white oak I did for a handrail. It is really beautiful ... 150 feet long and winds sinuously down a steep slope adjacent to stone steps to a Berkshire lakeside. It was built with custom iron brackets supporting on the bottom, so that it "floats" apparently in air (from a distance) and allows hands to run continuously during the walks up and down. Everyone that uses it loves it. It stays in place year round. So it requires maintenance virtually every year to keep the varnish in place. Some places more than others (direct sunlight). Can't find a good photo.

But in my search I came across this photo. A bunch of tillers for Dyer 9 winter frostbite racing dinghys. No one ever thinks about them until September, and then there isn't enough time to maintain them property. But even if there was, just one season of deferred maintenance, and they all get the deep black typical of the oaks. Some of these may be red oak - I'm not sure what the Anchorage uses - it was just a random photo I took at some point. But it is pretty illustrative of what happens when a clear varnish type finish is maintained, or isn't.

Found a photo of the White oak rail and added it. Typically revarnished with 5+ coats of Epifane every 2 years. The areas in the sun (see lower right) really take a beating.

[Bob Grier]

This is Bob, I did not design the adirondack chairs but thanks for the compliment. They are based on plan Rockler was selling and may still be selling. I modified it a bit. If anyone wants to use their plan, be careful, there is a dimension error that can cause a problem. It had something to do with legs and angle between the legs and something else. Lay it out and find the problem before making sawdust.