Bandsaw choices: MM16 (aka S400P) or Grizzly G0636x?

[guy knight]

when people compare brands one thing that never gets mentioned is the things you cant see that make a difference from the simple things like the different grade of bolts used i have broke 3 on my grizzly jointer and i was a mechanic so they where not over torqued bearings another great place to cut corners seals are another motors another great place to save money and make a difference in the long term use tolerance of parts all make a difference

[Frank Martin]

Great points made by others. If you can afford, without a doubt I would recommend Minimax. I had a Grizzly jointer/planer and then upgraded to Minimax combo machine, while a lot looked similar in specs, the quality and experience in actually using the two are very different. As others said, when you look at the specs on paper to make a decision, what you are missing the quality of build, tolerances, small design details. In my mind these two machines are in entirely different build quality categories. Of course this does not mean that Grizzly is not a decent machine and I have no experience with this particular one, but thinking the two are so similar based on specs could be misleading.

[Peter Aeschliman]

Good points on fit, finish, and details. There are enough favorable reviews of the minimax that I feel comfortable concluding that the quality is there. I'm more worried about the fit and finish of the Grizzly, but luckily I can go see the grizzly in person and get a sense for the quality... although I can't actually use it, I should be able to get reasonably comfortable with the build quality.

The $ difference between the machines is significant. That's the hard part for me. Without knowing the machines intimately, it's basically impossible for me to know whether the difference in quality is worth the money.

I know that labor in China is much cheaper than in Italy. So some of the price difference has to be attributable to that. Maybe half (just making this up for the sake of argument). The remainder has to come from somewhere. Maybe Grizzly has cheaper shipping due to their economies of scale. As I start thinking about it this way, I start to think that the quality difference might not be as sigificant as the price might indicate.

Ugh, now I'm over-thinking it. haha

[Andrew Hughes]

The resale value is a good thing to consider,You might find that you need or want more saw next year or two.If someone has already mentioned this.I apologize for being a parrot.

[Frank Martin]

Good points on fit, finish, and details. There are enough favorable reviews of the minimax that I feel comfortable concluding that the quality is there. I'm more worried about the fit and finish of the Grizzly, but luckily I can go see the grizzly in person and get a sense for the quality... although I can't actually use it, I should be able to get reasonably comfortable with the build quality.

The $ difference between the machines is significant. That's the hard part for me. Without knowing the machines intimately, it's basically impossible for me to know whether the difference in quality is worth the money.

I know that labor in China is much cheaper than in Italy. So some of the price difference has to be attributable to that. Maybe half (just making this up for the sake of argument). The remainder has to come from somewhere. Maybe Grizzly has cheaper shipping due to their economies of scale. As I start thinking about it this way, I start to think that the quality difference might not be as sigificant as the price might indicate.

Ugh, now I'm over-thinking it. haha

Looks like price difference is a really big factor for you. In that case, Grizzly may be what you want, and likely you won't be offended if you need to deal with the difference in quality such as replacing parts and repairing yourself as needed.

[Shiraz Balolia]

I'll have to jump in and correct a few things:

This machine is made in Taiwan in an ISO 9001 rated factory.

It was designed from the ground up to compete with the Italian machines and our goal was to make it better. We succeeded. There are older threads on this machine. Do a search plus you should actually try to talk to someone who owns the G0636X as opposed to guys bringing up other issues they have had with other machines, some made in a different country altogether and not even in the same league. The G0636X is more expensive than other Grizzly bandsaws for a reason.

Call our toll free line and ask for a reference for a customer that has bought this machine. We do not screen these and you will get an unbiased opinion from an actual owner and be able to ask questions, if they are willing to answer them, about this particular machine. In this world economy and advances in manufacturing, made in Italy is no longer better in every case, and certainly not in this one!

[Erik Loza]

....It was designed from the ground up to compete with the Italian machines and our goal was to make it better. We succeeded..

"better", how? Be curious to know, myself. Maybe we can have a civil discussion here about the design features of our respective machines, and how they benefit the end user?

Erik

[Mike Hollingsworth]

No bad choice here. Both great outfits.

[Peter Aeschliman]

I'll have to jump in and correct a few things:

This machine is made in Taiwan in an ISO 9001 rated factory.

It was designed from the ground up to compete with the Italian machines and our goal was to make it better. We succeeded. There are older threads on this machine. Do a search plus you should actually try to talk to someone who owns the G0636X as opposed to guys bringing up other issues they have had with other machines, some made in a different country altogether and not even in the same league. The G0636X is more expensive than other Grizzly bandsaws for a reason.

Call our toll free line and ask for a reference for a customer that has bought this machine. We do not screen these and you will get an unbiased opinion from an actual owner and be able to ask questions, if they are willing to answer them, about this particular machine. In this world economy and advances in manufacturing, made in Italy is no longer better in every case, and certainly not in this one!

Thanks Shiraz. I'll take you up on that!

[Frank Martin]

"better", how? Be curious to know, myself. Maybe we can have a civil discussion here about the design features of our respective machines, and how they benefit the end user?

Erik

I would love to see a "civil discussion" without this thread getting locked / removed. I do think these companies do serve specific customer segments, just have not been convinced that they are the same segment, but would love to learn.

[Erik Loza]

I would love to see a "civil discussion" without this thread getting locked / removed. I do think these companies do serve specific customer segments, just have not been convinced that they are the same segment, but would love to learn.

I'm glad to answer questions for anyone, including another manufacturer, about the various features of any of the Minimax machines. For the record, folks can say that not once in my original post, did I ever claim that the MM16 was "better" than any other machine. I just gave some reasons for why it costs what it costs. "Better" is purely subjective and IMO, the mfr. is the LAST person who can make that decision for the customer.

Erik

[Perry Holbrook]

All I can say is that when I bought that Grizzly BS several years ago, I felt it was the "better" value.

[Frank Martin]

All I can say is that when I bought that Grizzly BS several years ago, I felt it was the "better" value.

Excellent point! "Value" depends on personal priorities and preferences. For example, in this same situation, if I did not already have an Agazzani, I would be buying a Minimax or a Laguna bandsaw, becasue I feel they are a better value for me. Of course both of us are right, there is no wrong here, just priorities and preferences. This is exactly what I meant by saying that these companies' core customer segments don't have a lot of overlap and they serve different people / needs most of the time.

[Allan Speers]

Regarding "value to the particular user," here's some questions I'd want answers to: (#s 1-3 are critical.)

How do the 2 machines compare, regarding -

1: Alignment of the guides, when raising / lowering the post.

2: Ease of changing blades.

3: Ease of setting the guides

4: Functionality of the stock fence for sawing veneer. (Though again, I don't think you can beat the aftermarket Laguna fence, anyway.)

5: Size of the table.

6: How easy to angle the table, to an exact bevel.

7: (to a lesser extent) Customer service and replacement parts. etc.)

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Things I wouldn't care much about, as a hobbyist:

1: How it will hold up under heavy use.

2: How much power it has. (both are plenty for my needs)

3: How heavy the wheels are. (Again, both are heavy enough for me.)

4: Fit & finish. I wouldn't pay $1300 for prettier welds.

5: Resale value.

[Erik Loza]

Allan, here are my answers regarding the Minimax S400P (aka MM16). Answers in blue, inside your quote...

Erik

1: Alignment of the guides, when raising / lowering the post. S400P has four adjusting bolts, which are accesible from outside the cabinet, for adjusting guidpost plumb.
2: Ease of changing blades. Easy enough, I guess. Really depends on the blade. A 1" skip-tooth blade will be a whole different deal than a 1/2 blade, for example.
3: Ease of setting the guides. Minimax now ships them with the Euro-style guides. Same used by Agazzani and ACM for years. Just locking thumb rings. No tools required.
4: Functionality of the stock fence for sawing veneer. (Though again, I don't think you can beat the aftermarket Laguna fence, anyway.) I've had a lot of owners drill and tap or just clamp on accessory high fences but it sounds like you already answered yyour own question: There is no stock fence that is going to be adequate for the owner who wants to cut really tall veneers. You have to go DIY or aftermarket. The S400P fence is VERY heavy, though. All cast iron.
5: Size of the table. Would need to check my data sheet to be sure but on par with any other 16" machine. I thinl you will find that table sizes are all pretty much the same for the various size levels of bandsaw. You can only go so big on the infeed side, of course, and we want the table to equally balanced along the blade centerline.
6: How easy to angle the table, to an exact bevel. Real easy on the S400P. Just pop the lever with your hand and set it where you want.
7: (to a lesser extent) Customer service and replacement parts. etc.) Wearable parts (tires, belts, switches, etc) are almost always in stock. Major structural components may have to come from Italy and I'd be lying of I said there sometimes wasn't a wait but the good thing is that stuff rarely goes wrong with bandsaws. At least Italian ones. If a machine shows up smashed, I'd just ship the customer a new one but honestly, 99% of my support calls are just setup related.

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Things I wouldn't care much about, as a hobbyist:
1: How it will hold up under heavy use. I'll let the MM16 owners answer that.
2: How much power it has. (both are plenty for my needs). More than you will ever need.
3: How heavy the wheels are. (Again, both are heavy enough for me.) About 25lbs. apiece on the S400P
4: Fit & finish. I wouldn't pay $1300 for prettier welds. Again, "good enough". I think there are plenty of other bandsaws out there that have shinier parts and sexier paint jobs but hopefully, MM owners aren't as concerned about stuff like that.
5: Resale value. Again, I'll let owners answer that. Based on the calls I get, if SCM had a warehouse full of used MM16's, I could probably sell them all in a day. "Any used or demos?" Get that all the time.