Pilot License

[Martin Shupe]

Kent, there a lot of expenses in starting up an independent charter operation. You also have to do 100 hour inspections, which, unless you are an A&P, are costly. You also need enough customers to keep the lights on.

Someone once said the best way to make a million dollars in aviation is to start with two million dollars.

Also, don't ever buy a plane without getting a "pre-buy" inspection from a mechanic that 1) you trust, and 2) has no history with the plane or its current owner.

I sent you a PM, but it doesn't look like you got it, so check your inbox.

[Dennis Peacock]

I LOVE to fly..!!!! I wish I could get my PPL but money is my limiting factor. I have 4.5 hours of flight time in a Cessna 172 and LOVED it. Taking off and landing was no real problem for me as well as just flying around or in a pattern. Maybe one day, I can get my Sport Pilot's License.

[Randy Rizzo]

Kent, there a lot of expenses in starting up an independent charter operation. You also have to do 100 hour inspections, which, unless you are an A&P, are costly. You also need enough customers to keep the lights on.

Someone once said the best way to make a million dollars in aviation is to start with two million dollars.

Also, don't ever buy a plane without getting a "pre-buy" inspection from a mechanic that 1) you trust, and 2) has no history with the plane or its current owner.

I sent you a PM, but it doesn't look like you got it, so check your inbox.

Randy, I've been looking at Cessna Skylanes (turbo). What type of commercial use would these be good for in your opinion and experience. The pilot of the King Air B200 was formerly a naval pilot. I wonder if it would be more worthwhile, considering my age, to be an independent charter pilot (liability insurance I know is sky high, no pun intended, for this type of business).

Kent, I've been out of that end of the business for more than 40 years, so I think my opinion on that wouldn't bear much weight. Martin is correct there are a lot of costs is setting up an independent charter operation. You cannot just decide to charter your airplane out for hire without an Air Taxi Commercial Operating Certificate. (ATCO) And the cost to maintain that certificate is enormous. Everything you have related to the maintenance of that aircraft needs documentation. If you're having someone else do the maintenance they also fall under scrutiny. Spares, misc. shop items such as adhesives, you have to damn near be able to document where the raw material came from and the pit it was mined from. Buying a used aircraft, anything with a prescribed overhaul time needs documentation. Time since overhaul/new? If you can't document the time on a given item it would have to be replaced. I'll bet we threw out more seals and gaskets than we used, even though they were in sealed packages, they had expiration dates. As to liability insurance, I doubt with minimum qualifications you could even get insured at any price, but that's a question for an underwriter. There's a lot of questions here that go beyond what can really be answered in an informal chat room setting. You really need to seek the counsel of local authorities, such as your FAA Flight Standards District Office (FSDO) and perhaps a company who can set up an ATCO operation for you, it won't be cheap. Take a couple of flight lessons, you might decide this is not for you and everything becomes a moot point, or you will really enjoy it!

[Kent Adams]

Randy, I've been looking at Cessna Skylanes (turbo). What type of commercial use would these be good for in your opinion and experience. The pilot of the King Air B200 was formerly a naval pilot. I wonder if it would be more worthwhile, considering my age, to be an independent charter pilot (liability insurance I know is sky high, no pun intended, for this type of business).

Kent, I've been out of that end of the business for more than 40 years, so I think my opinion on that wouldn't bear much weight. Martin is correct there are a lot of costs is setting up an independent charter operation. You cannot just decide to charter your airplane out for hire without an Air Taxi Commercial Operating Certificate. (ATCO) And the cost to maintain that certificate is enormous. Everything you have related to the maintenance of that aircraft needs documentation. If you're having someone else do the maintenance they also fall under scrutiny. Spares, misc. shop items such as adhesives, you have to damn near be able to document where the raw material came from and the pit it was mined from. Buying a used aircraft, anything with a prescribed overhaul time needs documentation. Time since overhaul/new? If you can't document the time on a given item it would have to be replaced. I'll bet we threw out more seals and gaskets than we used, even though they were in sealed packages, they had expiration dates. As to liability insurance, I doubt with minimum qualifications you could even get insured at any price, but that's a question for an underwriter. There's a lot of questions here that go beyond what can really be answered in an informal chat room setting. You really need to seek the counsel of local authorities, such as your FAA Flight Standards District Office (FSDO) and perhaps a company who can set up an ATCO operation for you, it won't be cheap. Take a couple of flight lessons, you might decide this is not for you and everything becomes a moot point, or you will really enjoy it!

Randy, I know you're right on everything here. I used to finance yachts and the rule of thumb was that a yacht has yearly carrying costs of about 10% of the gross cost of the yacht (if new). I would imagine its the same for aircraft. I would have an appraisal done on a plane if they are the same types of appraisals done with yachts. Basically they do a tear down of the engine, electrical and structural aspects in their evaluation. There are numerous charter maintenance facilities where I live they could maintain the aircraft. Lots of questions. It'll be a couple of years before I would even attempt to purchase or pursue something like this. First things first though like you said, learn to fly to see if I even enjoy it.

[Keith Westfall]

Kent,

Go for your licence, get a bit of time and then go for your instructor rating. Although not really exciting (well, at times it can be!) you'll get some hours and experience.

All the stuff talked about to set up a company will apply, but perhaps a flight school would generate a steadier clientele. Never done it so don't know, (and somebody will certainly enlighten us) but there are many different ways to to be involved in flying an airplane.

If nothing else, you can travel to many places in your own plane for the cost of trying to go the airline captain route!

Most of all. have some fun. There is nothing like it...

[Mike Null]

I have always wanted to fly my own plane. I have never been able to afford the training but the desire is still there and I'm 78. Like somebody else said, "if I hit the lottery I might do it".

Before I retired we had a King Air and Cessna Citation which we literally flew the wings off. The pilots were on our payroll and their jobs had to be among the worst in the company--terrible hours, long days and always being available. We had 8 plants scattered from NJ to Iowa to SC plus we frequently flew to Chicago to pick up our largest customers. That's not the kind of work I'd aspire to but it's flying and probably beats commercial work on smaller planes.

[Red OLeary]

Starkly boring? Well it can be. Chicago to Teterboro, hang out for 3 days, and then back to Chicago, yeah that was boring. Then there was my last international trip, 2009/2010. Christmas in New Guniea, flew to Bali, Indonesia for New Years. Post flight revealed a cut tire that would have to be changed. Followed by a hydraulic leak discovered changing the tire. On to Beijing day after New Years Day, to arrive in time for the most severe winter storm they've had in 60 years. All the airlines had cancelled flights, we were the only one arriving that afternoon!

Engage the auto pilot at 500'? Sure you can, but I think to a man we all hand flew to and down from cruise altitude, a practice I encouraged. Flying skills deteriorate unless continually practiced, someday that auto pilot/flight director won't be there. I have a theory that has proven to be correct on more than one occasion, "technology will let you down when you need it most". With the technology available in the glass cockpits today one does not need much of an imagination or thought process to have a mental picture of where you are in the flight profile. Take away the gizmos and most of today's crop of aviators are lost. Quite a few years ago with the implementation of flight management systems, glass cockpits etc., I think it was Northwest airlines that did a study, old guys versus new guys. The young troops were whizzes on the keyboards, couldn't fly raw data. For the older guys it was just the opposite.

Thats just my experience, when I go on a post- C check test flight pilot s, almost to a man, will engage the AP as soon as they can. But I think that by design the to/from business of flying should be boring, it's only when things don't go right that it gets really interesting, and that's when I hope the pilot can step up his game and fly the airplane. I've flown with a lot of crews and experience and skill are all over the board.

[Rich Engelhardt]

I'm thinking of a career change at 47.

I changed careers at the age of 40. I went from retail management into the IT/Computer/Electronics field. I quit working for two years and went back to school.
When I graduated, I had to compete with people half my age for an entry level position.
You're going to be in a very similar position.
At 50, (an approx. age of entry if you start now), you are less than half the man a 25 year old is. You are slower, slower to recover and overall, more "beat up".
That's a hard fact to face, but, it's true.
Desire and dedication can take you a long way, but, in the end you have to be able to push yourself beyond normal physical and mental limits.
It gets discouraging real fast to see some "youngster" outpace you simply because you have more "miles on you" than they do.

Also - you'll need to stand out from the crowd in order to have anyone take notice of your abilities. Not only will you have to be #1, you'll have to be so far beyond #2, you're not even running the same race.
I graduated from the two year tech school w/perfect attendance, a perfect 4.0 GPA and the 2nd highest overall grade percentage (99.8%) in the ~ 20 year history of the school.
I had five job interviews (more like offers) a month prior to graduation........
Three fell through at the interview when I sat down face to face with the interviewer and they saw how old I was.
One paid minimum wage and the other just slightly above. Thankfully, that one also had an excellent ongoing training program.

Sure it's illegal to not hire someone because of their age....just prove it....bear in mind that "You can tell by the look on a person's face they were expecting someone younger to walk into the interview room". - - can't be used as proof.

Anywho good luck if you decide to make the change.

FWIW - I jumped from the IT field 4 years ago when I "retired"., into the home remodeling/house rehab/real estate (rental) field at the tender young age of 59 1/2.

I'm having a ball.....just thought I'd mention that so it doesn't sound all discouraging..
(LOL! Talk about being "mileage challenged" , I can't keep pace with my 15 year old grandson humping drywall from the garage to the basement ! "D)(Oh well, who cares, it's fun anyhow!)

[Curt Harms]

ASome insight on costs-

https://atpflightschool.com/programs/

FlightSafety has an academy in Florida for 'ground up' flight training. They (FlightSafety) are the '800 lb. gorilla' of corporate aviation training. I have no insight about the academy but one possible benefit - you'd be indoctrinated in the FlightSafety way of doing things - might make things simpler down the road.

http://www.flightsafetyacademy.com/d...rogram.pdf?v=1

Be cautious about cost estimates from lesser known flight training companies. They quote the absolute minimum requirements. Few people complete the requirements in the minimum required time - it usually takes longer. And yes, age does enter into it. Legally the age 60 - now age 65 - applies only to Pilots-in-Command of part 121 operations (airlines)in the U.S. but some major corporate operators used to use it as well. I don't know the current situation in light of age discrimination lawsuits and legislation.

Also, bear in mind that flying may not be that different from woodworking or any other hobby to business transition. It can be a lot more fun when you're doing something because you want to and not because you have to. Sitting on a deserted airport ramp in the middle of the night in the winter where you have to start the engines every hour or so else they'll be too cold to start is distinctly unglamorous.

[Kent Adams]

ASome insight on costs-

https://atpflightschool.com/programs/

FlightSafety has an academy in Florida for 'ground up' flight training. They (FlightSafety) are the '800 lb. gorilla' of corporate aviation training. I have no insight about the academy but one possible benefit - you'd be indoctrinated in the FlightSafety way of doing things - might make things simpler down the road.

http://www.flightsafetyacademy.com/d...rogram.pdf?v=1

Be cautious about cost estimates from lesser known flight training companies. They quote the absolute minimum requirements. Few people complete the requirements in the minimum required time - it usually takes longer. And yes, age does enter into it. Legally the age 60 - now age 65 - applies only to Pilots-in-Command of part 121 operations (airlines)in the U.S. but some major corporate operators used to use it as well. I don't know the current situation in light of age discrimination lawsuits and legislation.

Also, bear in mind that flying may not be that different from woodworking or any other hobby to business transition. It can be a lot more fun when you're doing something because you want to and not because you have to. Sitting on a deserted airport ramp in the middle of the night in the winter where you have to start the engines every hour or so else they'll be too cold to start is distinctly unglamorous.

180 days from no experience to commercial airline certification? I can't imagine any airline would hire someone with 6 months of experience. However, the costs are interesting and less than I thought. Thanks for the links. I think I've decided to continue to pursue but in a recreational path. Last night I found the 2014 gulfstream pilot salary survey and considering how many hours I would need, beyond certification, and how little they actually pay considering my current employment, it makes little fiscal sense. I do want to fly though, so I can pursue that. I can see though this would be an easy track if I was just coming out of the military with thousands of flight hours already in my "pocket".

[James Gunning]

Kent,

I was surprised at how many pilots and folks with aviation experience we have on the 'Creek. Must be woodworking draws that type. My story is: Paid for my private pilot license, and was trained by an excellent instructor that had flown in the Army Air Corps. I took my check ride just weeks before going to Army flight school. Spent 12+ years on active duty, lastly as a UH-60 IP/IFE. In between, I paid for further fixed wing ratings up to my ATP. Then went to work at Comair. Flew a short time as a First Officer and then 23 years as a Captain until Delta shut us down in 2012, and I retired. The advice you have received here is good with looks into several areas. Starting at age 47 the airlines are out of reach unless a miracle happens-which isn't likely. However, other places in commercial aviation may be open. The issue of age is the biggest barrier you face, time is very much against you at this point. My suggestion is to get your Private, Commercial, and Instrument certificates, and see if you really want to continue. At a minimum you will satisfy your urge to see what flying is about. You will have enough of a look at aviation at that point to make a more informed decision. You could go to Flight Safety, Embry-Riddle, or one of the large part 141 schools, but there are good schools and instructors in other places as well. Most of the big schools are more oriented toward a future airline job. They will prepare you well for flying high performance aircraft, but getting an actual paying job at that level requires a lot of experience which you won't have. The traditional route is to then instruct to gain flight time and experience. That will only take you so far though, because you will generally not be gaining Pilot in Command time in larger, turbine multi-engine aircraft. That is the gold standard and really what you need to get a job flying a jet or large turbo-prop for an airline, company flight department or charter operator. If I can answer more specific questions, please PM me.

[Kent Adams]

Kent,

I was surprised at how many pilots and folks with aviation experience we have on the 'Creek. Must be woodworking draws that type. My story is: Paid for my private pilot license, and was trained by an excellent instructor that had flown in the Army Air Corps. I took my check ride just weeks before going to Army flight school. Spent 12+ years on active duty, lastly as a UH-60 IP/IFE. In between, I paid for further fixed wing ratings up to my ATP. Then went to work at Comair. Flew a short time as a First Officer and then 23 years as a Captain until Delta shut us down in 2012, and I retired. The advice you have received here is good with looks into several areas. Starting at age 47 the airlines are out of reach unless a miracle happens-which isn't likely. However, other places in commercial aviation may be open. The issue of age is the biggest barrier you face, time is very much against you at this point. My suggestion is to get your Private, Commercial, and Instrument certificates, and see if you really want to continue. At a minimum you will satisfy your urge to see what flying is about. You will have enough of a look at aviation at that point to make a more informed decision. You could go to Flight Safety, Embry-Riddle, or one of the large part 141 schools, but there are good schools and instructors in other places as well. Most of the big schools are more oriented toward a future airline job. They will prepare you well for flying high performance aircraft, but getting an actual paying job at that level requires a lot of experience which you won't have. The traditional route is to then instruct to gain flight time and experience. That will only take you so far though, because you will generally not be gaining Pilot in Command time in larger, turbine multi-engine aircraft. That is the gold standard and really what you need to get a job flying a jet or large turbo-prop for an airline, company flight department or charter operator. If I can answer more specific questions, please PM me.

Thanks James for your reply. I'm surprised too at how many aviators are on the creek. You know, when I get on one of the regionals and I see the pilots look like they are in their 20's, it makes me nervous. When I see a fit pilot with gray hair, I feel relaxed. I would think that, at least from perception, my gray hair would be a benefit to the comfort level of passengers. However, not a chance in the world I would want to start at a regional level, so I think airlines are a no go for me. We have a 141 school in my city and I think I'll take that route for now. Thanks again for your feedback.

[charlie knighton]

GSO is great airport to fly in/out of commercially.......rarely a direct flight, but great ease of coming and going , espeically compared to some of my destinations airports

[Kent Adams]

GSO is great airport to fly in/out of commercially.......rarely a direct flight, but great ease of coming and going , espeically compared to some of my destinations airports

Fed Ex has built a Hub here, but its my understanding that its still no where near operating capacity. There are a number of good maintenance facilities here including Timco, as well as the new Honda Jet manufacturing facility. The local trade schools have set up to pump out mechanics for the growing industry. GSO is in a great central Mid-Atlantic location with a ton of potential.

[Curt Harms]

Thanks James for your reply. I'm surprised too at how many aviators are on the creek. You know, when I get on one of the regionals and I see the pilots look like they are in their 20's, it makes me nervous. When I see a fit pilot with gray hair, I feel relaxed. I would think that, at least from perception, my gray hair would be a benefit to the comfort level of passengers. However, not a chance in the world I would want to start at a regional level, so I think airlines are a no go for me. We have a 141 school in my city and I think I'll take that route for now. Thanks again for your feedback.

I wouldn't be surprised if that flight school, once you completed your training might want to talk to you about becoming a part time instructor. That's a way to get the first few hundred hours and depending on your personality, can be rewarding if not lucrative. That's the usual route in the civilian world. It can also result in something of a blind-leading-the-blind situation because low time instructors simply don't have the wisdom gained through the years to confer to their students.