Pilot License

[Scott Shepherd]

Kent, my instructor used the hours teaching to get him his hours, and if I recall correctly, it was very much just an hours in the seat game. You needed hours, and you only climbed the ladder by putting seat time in. He graduated from Emory Riddle college, and he was having to teach people like me to get his hours up enough to be able for anyone to even consider hiring him. When they did, it was a pretty low level job in the flight world. Then you just had to do so much time in that mode until anyone would consider you for the next step up. It wasn't like you got the certifications and there were job openings available. You really had to climb the ladder and it was a pretty lengthy process. I would guess you wouldn't even think of going from not flying to flying corporate jets in less than 10 years time, but that's just my personal gut feeling. I might be completely wrong on that, but I do know he was an excellent pilot with a major feather in his cap for where he was educated in flight, and he was still schleping people like me around, trying to keep me from killing myself. I think the day he crossed his milestone in hours for that next step up the ladder, he quit. He moved into flying cargo in a smaller plane, that wasn't a jet.

You can do it, it's just a long, slow process.

[Jerome Stanek]

You also need your multi engine rating and a cargo rating and a jet rating. all take many more hours than the commercial rating

[Ole Anderson]

My dad had about 250 hours when he gave it up, I never had an interest. He flipped a 175 on landing at a WY hunting ranch, everyone walked away. He later got his twin engine ticket.

I have a friend that is an ATC instructor, another that now flies for Alaska Air, started while in HS working toward that goal.

Another friends daughter went to school to fly, she now flies commercial airliners and husband flies jumbos for UPS. Common thread: they all went to school to get their commercial tickets.

Go go it!!!

[mike holden]

Back in the 70's I looked into flying. At that time the manufacturers listed the expected cost per hour for each of their models. They probably still do. If I recall correctly, a Piper Archer II cost about $150 per hour of flight time. This was the cost of owning the plane, insurance, amortization, gas, oil, maintenance and such.
This was just the cost of the plane. Instruction, pilot accessories (calculator, charts etc.), personal insurance, were extra.
I decided that I could learn to fly if I did nothing else for entertainment.
If I win the lottery, I would consider it again.
But it is VERY expensive, a good flight school can give you very precise numbers for what you want to do in today's dollars.
Go get info from the experts, and then decide.
Mike
Oh, and expect to get mailings from the AOPA for at least a year after talking to them (grin)

[Randy Rizzo]

Wow! It sounds like you've got the finances to make this happen, you've still got a fairly long road ahead of you, and considering you're starting at 47, I doubt you'll ever get into a position that's going to recoup your investment. I don't know whether or not that is a consideration. I was the Aviation Manager for a major Chicago corporate flight department from, 1979-2010. Before that, Demo Captain/Flight Instructor with Gates Learjet. When looking for flight personnel, 5,000 hrs was a minimum requirement, along with jet ratings, ATP, etc., and that was for entry level First Officer. Most of the other operators had similar requirements. I know that fractional operators (Netjets, Flexjets, FBO's, etc.) don't have as stringent a requirement, but you're still going to have to acquire the bare minimum requirements along the way, certificates progressing from Private Pilot, Commercial, Instrument, Multi Engine, Airline Transport Rating, and at least a type rating in a jet of some sort. Re, your friend's pilot working 20 hours a month? I assume you mean he logs 20 hours of flight time a month. He probably "worked" 5-6 times that in preflight, post flight, layover, overnights, training, etc. Our pilots flying Falcon 900's were logging 4-500 a year. We averaged 200-250 duty days a year, most of it in chunks of 3-5 days, or 2-3 weeks if the trip were international. Our guys were on call pretty much 24/7. Time off for special occasions, was a rarity. I can't tell you the number of birthdays, anniversaries, holidays, we were gone. We had 10 pilots to crew 3 aircraft. The only time assured off was when all 3 aircraft were out of the barn and you weren't on one. Of course we usually took that time to schedule a weeks worth of recurrent training for you, which we did twice a year. It sounds like you haven't started any flying yet, give it a shot. It's not for everybody, just because you think you'll like it does not necessarily mean you'll have the skill to do it.

[charlie knighton]

I witnessed a fatal single prop crash as a child, but I'm not really concerned

.

I have only really felt and understood the loss in the later part of my life......planning and experiencing your lifes plan is very fulfilling.....good luck in your new endeavor

[Keith Westfall]

As a retired Commercial Helicopter pilot of 35 years, 7 years in maintenance before that, (fixed wing and helicopters) and a private pilot licence before all of that, I'm thinking it will be a steep hard climb. Can you do it? Of course you can. But having the money to do it is just a small part of it.

NOBODY will 'want' you for a number of years (more than a few!) and not only hours (poorest judge of a persons skill and ability) but EXPERIENCE. And that takes a while.

You sound like you are a successful business banker, but that doesn't mean you will be a good aviation employee. It is a different world...

I thoroughly enjoyed my years in the industry, but when I decided I was done, I was done, (and don't miss it!) Sounds a lot like you in the banking world.

If you have the desire and the resources to do it, do it. It is an experience like no other. And to those who say (and believe me I heard it many times) that it unsafe and dangerous, it is unbelievably more safer than you driving to work everyday. You just need to make good decisions (weather, loads, other conditions etc) on the job, because the choices are more critical and sometimes not so many chances for a do-over.

At 47, you are competing with a lot of younger people with sharper and quicker reflects, in a fast changing environment.

But you can learn to fly, and you can get through the many endorsements to build up your qualifications, but the sad thing is, is that potential employers are probably not willing to invest in your short career. It costs a lot to keep crews current and trained, and you will be lacking the many years f experience that they would prefer to have.

But good luck! I wish you well and hope it works out for you.

klw

ps- if a flight school tells you that 'all' of their pilots get hired, and that they have the best connections, just remember: their ONLY ROLE is to teach you how to fly and take your money while doing it. A lot of them don't have their own operations that hire, and the sad reality is, they cannot guarantee your future...

Keep us posted.

[Martin Shupe]

You also need your multi engine rating and a cargo rating and a jet rating. all take many more hours than the commercial rating

Cargo rating?

[Kent Adams]

Randy, you're a wealth of knowledge on this it seems. You make a lot of good points and observations. You're right, that 20 hours was probably a lot more as it was just flight time I was quoting. 5,000 hours seems like a whole lot, were you guys hiring retired airline pilots or those with extensive military experience? My understanding is that the regional airline pilots often have far fewer than 5,000 flight hours when they get their first captain appointment. Am I wrong on that? These guys (regionals) make so little money, at those hours I'm not sure it would be worth it.

[Kent Adams]

As a retired Commercial Helicopter pilot of 35 years, 7 years in maintenance before that, (fixed wing and helicopters) and a private pilot licence before all of that, I'm thinking it will be a steep hard climb. Can you do it? Of course you can. But having the money to do it is just a small part of it.

NOBODY will 'want' you for a number of years (more than a few!) and not only hours (poorest judge of a persons skill and ability) but EXPERIENCE. And that takes a while.

You sound like you are a successful business banker, but that doesn't mean you will be a good aviation employee. It is a different world...

I thoroughly enjoyed my years in the industry, but when I decided I was done, I was done, (and don't miss it!) Sounds a lot like you in the banking world.

If you have the desire and the resources to do it, do it. It is an experience like no other. And to those who say (and believe me I heard it many times) that it unsafe and dangerous, it is unbelievably more safer than you driving to work everyday. You just need to make good decisions (weather, loads, other conditions etc) on the job, because the choices are more critical and sometimes not so many chances for a do-over.

At 47, you are competing with a lot of younger people with sharper and quicker reflects, in a fast changing environment.

But you can learn to fly, and you can get through the many endorsements to build up your qualifications, but the sad thing is, is that potential employers are probably not willing to invest in your short career. It costs a lot to keep crews current and trained, and you will be lacking the many years f experience that they would prefer to have.

But good luck! I wish you well and hope it works out for you.

klw

ps- if a flight school tells you that 'all' of their pilots get hired, and that they have the best connections, just remember: their ONLY ROLE is to teach you how to fly and take your money while doing it. A lot of them don't have their own operations that hire, and the sad reality is, they cannot guarantee your future...

Keep us posted.

Thanks for the advice Keith. "but the sad thing is, is that potential employers are probably not willing to invest in your short career. It costs a lot to keep crews current and trained, and you will be lacking the many years f experience that they would prefer to have." That was a point I completely overlooked. I have a lot of research to do it would seem.

[Dan Hintz]

Sometimes... you just have to do something for yourself. It doesn't matter if you can recoup the money, you just need to do it to keep your sanity.

If you can afford it (financially, personally, etc.), I say go for it...

[Randy Rizzo]

Randy, you're a wealth of knowledge on this it seems. You make a lot of good points and observations. You're right, that 20 hours was probably a lot more as it was just flight time I was quoting. 5,000 hours seems like a whole lot, were you guys hiring retired airline pilots or those with extensive military experience? My understanding is that the regional airline pilots often have far fewer than 5,000 flight hours when they get their first captain appointment. Am I wrong on that? These guys (regionals) make so little money, at those hours I'm not sure it would be worth it.

Kent, you're right, the regionals do take guys with a lot less than 5,000 hrs. (Think about that next time you hop on one of those!) None of my guys were retired airline, all had some sort of previous experience with other corporate operators, and were generally in their late thirties, early forties, and had been flying for quite some time. Two were ex military, but had been in corporate flying with other companies. 5,000 hours, while it may seem a lot, experience wise you're just getting your feet wet! The first couple of thousand hours is just spent acquiring ratings for the majority of guys. I don't think anyone ever flew for the regionals with the thought it would be a lifelong career, rather a stepping stone to build time/experience in hopes of landing a position with a major carrier. You're also correct, the compensation at the regional level is a pittance, I don't know how any of them survive.

i don't want to rain on your parade, but getting to the point where someone will hire you at a living wage is going to take time and perservance. Ask your friends King Air pilot what his career path has been to this point. Odds are he started like most of us, acquired enough flight time/certificates, flight instructed to build more time, finally got a flying job that paid more money, better equipment, and just kept working his way up the ladder. In my case I started flying in 1964 at 24, landing my first corporate gig in 1968. And that position was just a stepping stone, but it was good one. A one pilot operation in a Cessna 401, that became a King Air, that turned into a Lear 25, and ended just as quickly with the Oil Embago in 1973. 3 other jobs, none of substance, until I got a real break with Gates Learjet in 1977. And so it goes!

[Red OLeary]

I got my license 20 years ago and I haven't flown in probably 12! For me it was always a dream when I was a kid to fly so I did it, I think I was 24 when I got my license, but for me it was just a hobby, a damned expensive one, that also wasn't a shared interest with any of my friends, so most of my flying was solo for the $100 hamburger. I happen to also be an A&P for a living, working on business jets and as has been mentioned before a lot of the corporate guys have heaps of experience except for possibly the NetJets crews. But to me corporate flying is starkly boring! At 500' off the ground you engage the auto pilot then try to stay awake until you get to the destination, then you hang out in a flight lounge ALL DAY waiting for "The Man" to get back so you can take him home. I don't mean to dissuade you from your dream, but it is a long road and it to me one of those things where the reality of it is far removed the the "romantic notion" of it. It's not unlike being an airplane mechanic... it sounds really cool but at the end of the day its a lot of "righty tighty, lefty losey" type stuff, it can be really rewarding but it's often just take it apart, put it back together again.
All the best to you.

[Randy Rizzo]

I got my license 20 years ago and I haven't flown in probably 12! For me it was always a dream when I was a kid to fly so I did it, I think I was 24 when I got my license, but for me it was just a hobby, a damned expensive one, that also wasn't a shared interest with any of my friends, so most of my flying was solo for the $100 hamburger. I happen to also be an A&P for a living, working on business jets and as has been mentioned before a lot of the corporate guys have heaps of experience except for possibly the NetJets crews. But to me corporate flying is starkly boring! At 500' off the ground you engage the auto pilot then try to stay awake until you get to the destination, then you hang out in a flight lounge ALL DAY waiting for "The Man" to get back so you can take him home. I don't mean to dissuade you from your dream, but it is a long road and it to me one of those things where the reality of it is far removed the the "romantic notion" of it. It's not unlike being an airplane mechanic... it sounds really cool but at the end of the day its a lot of "righty tighty, lefty losey" type stuff, it can be really rewarding but it's often just take it apart, put it back together again.
All the best to you.

Starkly boring? Well it can be. Chicago to Teterboro, hang out for 3 days, and then back to Chicago, yeah that was boring. Then there was my last international trip, 2009/2010. Christmas in New Guniea, flew to Bali, Indonesia for New Years. Post flight revealed a cut tire that would have to be changed. Followed by a hydraulic leak discovered changing the tire. On to Beijing day after New Years Day, to arrive in time for the most severe winter storm they've had in 60 years. All the airlines had cancelled flights, we were the only one arriving that afternoon!

Engage the auto pilot at 500'? Sure you can, but I think to a man we all hand flew to and down from cruise altitude, a practice I encouraged. Flying skills deteriorate unless continually practiced, someday that auto pilot/flight director won't be there. I have a theory that has proven to be correct on more than one occasion, "technology will let you down when you need it most". With the technology available in the glass cockpits today one does not need much of an imagination or thought process to have a mental picture of where you are in the flight profile. Take away the gizmos and most of today's crop of aviators are lost. Quite a few years ago with the implementation of flight management systems, glass cockpits etc., I think it was Northwest airlines that did a study, old guys versus new guys. The young troops were whizzes on the keyboards, couldn't fly raw data. For the older guys it was just the opposite.

[Kent Adams]

Starkly boring? Well it can be. Chicago to Teterboro, hang out for 3 days, and then back to Chicago, yeah that was boring. Then there was my last international trip, 2009/2010. Christmas in New Guniea, flew to Bali, Indonesia for New Years. Post flight revealed a cut tire that would have to be changed. Followed by a hydraulic leak discovered changing the tire. On to Beijing day after New Years Day, to arrive in time for the most severe winter storm they've had in 60 years. All the airlines had cancelled flights, we were the only one arriving that afternoon!

Engage the auto pilot at 500'? Sure you can, but I think to a man we all hand flew to and down from cruise altitude, a practice I encouraged. Flying skills deteriorate unless continually practiced, someday that auto pilot/flight director won't be there. I have a theory that has proven to be correct on more than one occasion, "technology will let you down when you need it most". With the technology available in the glass cockpits today one does not need much of an imagination or thought process to have a mental picture of where you are in the flight profile. Take away the gizmos and most of today's crop of aviators are lost. Quite a few years ago with the implementation of flight management systems, glass cockpits etc., I think it was Northwest airlines that did a study, old guys versus new guys. The young troops were whizzes on the keyboards, couldn't fly raw data. For the older guys it was just the opposite.

Randy, I've been looking at Cessna Skylanes (turbo). What type of commercial use would these be good for in your opinion and experience. The pilot of the King Air B200 was formerly a naval pilot. I wonder if it would be more worthwhile, considering my age, to be an independent charter pilot (liability insurance I know is sky high, no pun intended, for this type of business).