Paul, I love ya, buddy...but you need to re-read this little ditty!!Originally Posted by Paul B. Cresti
Moderator
Paul, I love ya, buddy...but you need to re-read this little ditty!!
Member
what is your budget ? that will help to direct your search. If money is no object then the german or italian machines are real nice as well as american made northfield. But it you are thinking in the 3000 or less range then it is either tiawian or used vintage stuff.
lou
Member
hi jim
consider the RC53 (24") or RC 51 (20")
there were delta but now are sold under the original Invicta name. I bought a used RC51 with auto table, etc and find it a great solid machine.
regards
mike
Member
Hi Alan...
There is nothing wrong with the oliver 299.I am sorry if my comment may have come across as if I regret what I did. Not at all. Its just that I was darn lucky in time and space to get the 20 inch general when I did and when I look back at it, I wish I would have kept it. I could put it next to my 1904 fay & egan 20 inch planer in my old barn. May encourage me to finish the restoration.
What most folks dont know is this. Oliver was pretty much unique in its design of the 299. When you look at newman, whitney, buss, etc. many of these where pigs! Extreme heavy duty machines. Oliver had there own version of these as well in the 30 inch planer. General copied these monsters in making the 24 inch planer. But for the 20 inch planer, general copied many elements straight from the 299. They are too close to each other from an engineering point of view for that to be a coincidence! Check out the one section body casting. Check out the one peice top casting. Examine the power feed rollers. Check out the reeves drive for the power feed speed control. They did do some things different. For example, there is a power take off from the main cutter head drive which runs the lower reeves drive for feed control. Oliver's feed system has its own motor. They also added a heavy sheet metal encasement which holds the drive belts and the main drive motor is located in the rear towards the ground. Olivers were direct drive. The sectional feed roller looks like oliver's been there! The sectional chip breaker looks so similar to the oliver that the only way you can tell the difference is that the general had chromed or polished handles and was 4 inches shorter.
The 14 inch general planer appears to be have been influenced by both early powermatic planers and also by parks planers. They also used their own design for the gear box. That gear box is awsome and I have not seen a similar one elsewhere.
These machines are old school designs. Lots of cast iron and precision machined parts. Very little CNC anywhere and virtually no plastic. Some may call this obsolete but they do an incredible job and can take abuse beyond reasonable. And if I need a part, I can either make it or have the machine shop down the street make it.
The oliver 299 planer is a massive 24 inch planer in most folks eyes. At least until they see the huge powermatics or buss or newman planers. But keep this fact in mind. The oliver 299 was built for use in professional pattern shops. It is a hyper precise machine and that is why most have 5 HP direct drive cutter head motors. Five ponies for a 24 inch lumber yard machine is not enough! The powermatic 24 inch planer was 10 HP typical and the buss often had 15 and 20 HP motors.
Now some 299 planers did have more power. You could order 7.5 and 10 hp motors. The 7.5 hp motor has the same form factor as the 5 so you need to read the motor tag to see what you have. The larger motors had a "donut" spacer about 3 inch thick between the motor casing and the motor end cap.
For those who have never seen a 299, the motor is direct drive and the motor casing is cast as part of the planers complete head. There are no bearings in the motor. The motor rotor hangs as a cantilevered shaft off the main cutter head shaft which is where the bearings are located. The stator winding assembly slides into this motor casing and the end cap is just bolted to this casing. There is a cooling fan on the end of the rotor which you can see if you look into the slots of the motor end cap casting.
The 299 or a modernist version of it can still be ordered. The oliver name is no more. Its been sold to some other outfit. The new name is Eagle Machinery & Repair in Grand Rapids, MI. They are still in the same building that they occupied since the the early 1900s. You can order "factory" rebuilt 299s with the oliver name or brand new versions with the eagle name. But they are very expensive.
I make my own replacement parts for my olivers and the olivers of my friends. So I am not at all concerned about having a machine for which parts may or may not be available.
What I found out about the larger or lumber yard planers is that many have been beat to death. Should you get one of these, be prepared for a lengthty and expensive restoration. Once done, any of these machines will perform so nicely that you will dance a jig on the kitchen table.
Had the dog not stopped to go to the bathroom, he would have caught the rabbit.
Member
Ouch tough crowdPaul, I love ya, buddy...but you need to re-read this little ditty!!. I just assume ( yes I know what I am for using that word) that imports have come to mean from Tiawan, China.....
Moderator
Well, Paul...I'm just a little anal sometimes. I knew "what" you meant, but there was a little conundrum in the wording...
Contributor
Dev,
Thanks so much for the tutorial. I knew I liked the look, and the reputation is excellent, but I was not aware of many of the features you described and compared. One thing that I found interesting, and it was recommended as important, was that the 299 has power bed rollers. I have never had a machine with those, nor used one except perhaps quickly and roughly at a yard or mill. I wonder at the snipe factor, since the bed rollers are set up .02". We shall see, but this is what was recommended to me.
Mine is the traditional teal, but that is a repaint with a very well matched color. I got some extra of the paint and will be painting my jointer back to original as well, since the last shop painted it a sort of nice looking silver/gray slightly on the green side. A nice color, but not the one for this guy.
Alan Turner
Philadelphia Furniture Workshop
Member
hi alan
my casadei also has them, and in fact the powered bed rollers was one of the main features that I was looking for in a machine. you are going to like them
best wishes and lets get hopping with those old iron pictures you have had long enough
http://www.casadeimacchine.com/html/.../big/R63H3.jpg
Member
yes Alan... the 299 has power bed rollers.
But so did my general 20 inch planer. In fact, the design was very similar to the oliver with some exceptions. But I should talk about what those differences truely mean from a comparative point of view.
The following is my own case study of the 299 planer. In general, there are three types of 299 planers. If you look on ebay right now, you will see a Type 1 299 planer. This planer has the brass chicken namplate and the hinged doors on the main casting. The type 2 of which my planer belongs to has bolt in doors in place of the hinged doors and has the red and white namplate. There were some improvements in the casting thickness of this planer over the type 1. Both the type 1 and type 2 have gear driven bed rollers run by a drive shaft that sits under the main bed. The third type or type 3 299 was first built in about 1974 and it has the ugly square shape and lots more rubber belts and pulleys. The feed motor end bell sticks out the front and the classic bed roller design was replaced with the more modern design. I prefer the older gear driven/drive shaft design myself.
Contary to what has been said, you can equip any of these types with the ITCH head if you desire. ITCH heads were not isolated for use in type 3 299 planers only! The ITCH head was the forrunner of the Byrd Shelix head. Just goes to show you that what is old is new again.
There was a unique option on 299 planers and I have only seen one of these in my entire life. That is, a micrometer adjust for the bed rollers. Now most of your heavy duty lumber yard planers all had these as standard options. Check out the heavy duty 24 inch powermatics and you will see the lever or dial on the front edge of the infeed table.
This gizmo allows one to adjust the height of the bed rollers quickly and with ease. It also allows you to fine tune this height for different applications. For example, in very rough lumber you may wish to use more than 2 thousandths. In smooth lumber, you may wish to dial it to 1.5 to 2 thousandths or 2 thou as they say. It is a very nice thing to have. The lumber yard planers are always dealing with nasty rough lumber, nice planed lumber and anything inbetween. Thus, they needed to have this option. The 299 frequenly was used to precision mill mahagony and crystal clear pine for patterns. It is more adapted to milling precision stock for fine furniture and cabinets than for plowing though thousands of feet of rough and fuzzy timber. Sure the 299 can do this job very well... but you may need to first dial it in for such a job which includes raising the bed rollers.
But also bear in mind that my buddy showed me a slab of nasty walnut super burl that he had planed with a 1945 type 1 299. There was no pull out or blow out and the slab was smooth as glass! He had planed this slab down to about 1/4 inch thickness. The cutter head was stock with three Schmidt T1 steel knives that had been ground and honed by the onboard knife grinder. You really could not ask for anything better than this!
Had the dog not stopped to go to the bathroom, he would have caught the rabbit.
Contributor
My dealer delivered the machine to me and wallked me thorugh the basics, but he had already sharpened the knives to be sure it was as good as he had told me. Mine has loose doors, no hinges, and is, I was told, from the 50's. Red label. It has little wear on the chipbreaker, which he was said was indicative of light use. I was thinking pattern shop. Some, he said, have chip breakers where the serations are almost smooth. I do not like factory machines. Piecework takes its toll, even on beasts.
Mine does have the grinder permanently mounted. He walked me through the procedure to sharpen the knives, and then to joint them. But, I think the jointer stone is gone. I will have to find one. Do you have a recommendation? Grit size?
Changing the bed rollers is a PITA, so he had already set it fine for me, knowing the work I like to do. Once I test drive it a bit I will know if they are right, but I don't think they will be going back and forth a lot. Had a PM 160 for a short while and it had a lever where it would either have the bed rollers high for rough lumber or low for smooth lumber. This does not have that device. Seemed handy to me, but I don't think the PM 160 had powered bed rollers, although I would not bet on that.
On this one the base has three holes in it. I am thinking that I will drill two more, in the corners, and mount a base of 4x4's with a place for a pallet jack. I won't want to move it often, but that guy is heavy, and I only have so many friends. 2800# I think.
Mine has a 3 knife, round cutterhead. And I have the knife setting block and the knife puller, but both of those are from my jointer, where all the parts were there. It also has a grinder, which I had never seen before for a jointer. The dealer was going to help me adjust it but when we put his 6' straight edge on it, it required none. I had been concerned that it got out of whack a bit because of the way it had to be rigged up to the second floor of the new shop. Went through a hole in the floor, 6' square, but the jointer is longer than that by about 3' if you count the table adjustment handles. Came up at a 45* angle on a 3 section forklift with chainfall assist. Riggers were already in the building, so I bought a couple of hours off of them without having to bear the mobilization charge.
Lou, I will post pix in due course, but we are still undergoing the roof replacement and the shop is still a disaster. I am trying to take a few shots as time goes along so I will have some "before and after" ones.
Alan Turner
Philadelphia Furniture Workshop
Member
Alan...
The honing stone is still available from Eagle Machinery & Repair in Grand Rapids, MI. As I recall, the stones are less than $50 dollars which is not that bad. I am considering replacing my grinder wheel with a borazon tipped wheel but we will see. The problem is that the wheel used by the grinder is unique and you may have to custom order replacement wheels.
If your doors are not hinged and you have a red label and your machine comes from the 1950s, then congrats
Had the dog not stopped to go to the bathroom, he would have caught the rabbit.
[OP]
Member
Serious;, thank you all so much for your insight. I am so glad I stumbled onto this site, there is a TON of knowledge and expierence on here. First let me the clear a few things, I was questioned on my budget... well there in lies the problem. This entire endevor started because I purchased a 15" Delta, which is a great machine, and it has been almost maintainace free. (It is amazing what 600 BF of hard maple will do to planer knives).
For some quick background I am an engineer, and I also do heavy construction on the side. My 'other' hobby is cars.... and of course a love for tools.... sound familiar. Yes I suffer from Tim Allan's bigger is better, and more power.
That being said I decided to upgrade HP in a planer, and if you are going to buy a new one, might as well add size to the equation too.
So I began researching, and researching... quickly realizing that the majority of the machines all look the same. Prices do not however, I assume the internals vary with manufacture. I originally intended on buying a large Delta (still thinking they were American made).
So once I start gathering information I notice a HUGE variation in price, I have found $1500 planers, all the way up to $15,000. Now as I said my initial plan was the Delta, around the $4k mark, but then I found the Powermatic 201 which is a 22" 7.5 HP and 4 blades for the same money? Next logical question is then do I spend a little more to go to a machine with a spiral / helical insert cutter head? Feed rates, and of course quality were other immediate concerns.
So lets budget $4-5 k... what would YOU buy ??
BTW Paul, politically correct, the term is Asian imports.
Regarding the Euro combinations, what manufactures would you suggest?
Thank you all again
Member
if you were willing to spend that much you could by the following used machines that I think are pretty hight quality
Italian 20 to 24 inch machines - you will have to probably spend your entire budget on them. Names would be SCM or SCMI, griggio, casadei. Getting any of these for under 5 k would be considered quite a deal if they were in decent shape, and they would all be 3 phase
American machines oliver 299 and powermatic 225 , newman 248, cresent p24, general 20 or 24 inch
I don't think you would be able to find a northfield #7 for less than about 7k
added to this list would be the delta invicta RC63, but I have heard some complaints about the tables moving under a load, so I would be leary about them. most of these would also be 3 phase
for new machines I think you are talking about only tiwian machines, but I could be wrong on that..
best wishes lou
Last edited by lou sansone; 08-27-2005 at 9:06 PM.
Member
Hi Jim, Within your budget I believe that PM 201 has some nice features. I would choose it over the Delta. Since you are on the east coast also look at the planers that Wilke sells under the Bridgewood name. Wilke, located in York, PA has a good reputation.
Invicta of Brazil, who used to make the planers for Delta is bringing them in under their own name. Price is around $4k-5k. I saw them at the AWFS in Vegas and they looked well built but fit and finish was not the greatest.
I like Lou's suggestions in looking also at a used European planer. Sometimes they show up on the IRS auction site and they are found on the Ex-factory website. I like Casolin, SAC, Griggio, MM, SCMI, Casadei, from the Italian machines. Felder, Martin, Panhans, Kolle from the German Austrian line, but these even used might be well above your budget.
For the older American made planers, I think on Redmond's site there were some rebuilt PM's. Check this out also.
A comment about the Euro jointer/planers. Although I've owned one, now a Felder Format 20", these are not for everybody. True they have a lot of good features, and for my situation and space this machine is perfect. But I know guys who absolutely have a mindset against them. If you haven't tried one then at least give it a look. But if you have and they don't fit into your work methods, then that's fine and we'll conscentrate on the stand alone planer and then move to a decent 12" jointer.
take care,
John
Member
Jim,
So once I start gathering information I notice a HUGE variation in price, I have found $1500 planers, all the way up to $15,000. Now as I said my initial plan was the Delta, around the $4k mark, but then I found the Powermatic 201 which is a 22" 7.5 HP and 4 blades for the same money? Next logical question is then do I spend a little more to go to a machine with a spiral / helical insert cutter head? Feed rates, and of course quality were other immediate concerns.
So lets budget $4-5 k... what would YOU buy ??
BTW Paul, politically correct, the term is Asian imports.
Regarding the Euro combinations, what manufactures would you suggest?
Thank you all again
OK I stand corrected. Even though my initials without my middle name are PC, I am far from it
I had two separate machines a 8" jointer and a 14" planer and the were both tops in their respective class. I chose to upgrade because I needed more jointing capacity. I wanted this to be my last machine (well I think so...
If you are willing to spend 4-5k then you are close to some high quality j/p's. Add to that the selling off of your existing equipment and add a bit and your are there. In order to even get close to the same quality in separates you will need to spend double and that is assuming you have the space for it, I do not if I match the same capacity that I have now. Trust me once you have matching jointing & planing capacity you will not know how you lived without it! Once you get into the 24" planning width I am not sure what you are planning anyway. I would take a stab at that being table tops and at that size a wdie belt would be better anyway. I think the 20" planer is just about the optimum size for a woodworker.
Personally I do not buy into this helical head business. I wanted to get away from the horrible knife changing/setting business and now that I have a Tersa head, changing knives is like chewing gum, no effort at all. The idea off spinning each individual knife does not intrigue me at all. If my knives are dull I either flip them over or replace them and they only cost about 40$ for a set of three (don't forget they have two sides). So my second suggestion is get a TERSA head!
I chose MiniMax because I wanted the highest quality product I could afford (or not) and did not require all the electronic add ons. They are nice but not necessary. I have also found out that these machines are quite eassly serviceable by myself. Now I am not like Lou, who will go and rebuild a machine, but I can work on them if I need to. These machines are simple and elegantly designed all while being extremely accurate and "real brutes" when needed. You definatley can spend more than a MiniMAx machine but you will not get better accuracy of performance. What you will get is more features only. BY the way, if you are into all the features you could ask for yet still have the MiniMax quality look at the parent company SCM. They are the biggest ww'g machinery company in the world.
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote