I Need Help Fixing a Problem With How to Attach Breadboards to My Table Top

[glenn bradley]

This is not the dowel method Matt and OP are talking about. They are talking using a butt joint between the tabletop on the breadboard with only the dowels running in between to connect them. What you are showing is the classic approach. What they are doing is blazing new territory.

Wow, did I miss that . Shame on me for not reading more carefully since I am prone to rolling my eyes at others that do not take the time to do so. I see a strength issue with a dowels-only approach. By the time I added enough dowels to feel comfortable I would have had a spline in, pegged and been done. So many ways to skin the cat .

[Brian Holcombe]

This is an interesting thread and lots of good info, I do have a question and hope I'm not hijacking the OP's thread. I'm also building a dining table (42"x92") but mine will have an apron to help hold down the table top. My ends will be exposed with no breadboards, will this give me issues?

In my opinion they should be combined with battens. Bread board ends are just battens on the end of the table. If you look at some Ming dynasty work they usually use a system of battens under a table attached with sliding dovetails and many of those tables have gone 400 years and remained in good condition.

You can possibly do without the BBE's but you probably should not do without a system of battens....especially for a 42" wide table.

Make absolutely certain that the battens do not bind the table or season movement will destroy it.

[Warren Wilson]

@Hoang: Yes you will have exactly the same issue when fastening an apron cross-grain as you will have fastening a breadboard end. The solutions are similar as well: fasten the center but allow the sides to expand and contract with seasonal humidities, usually with the use of slots. With aprons you can use "buttons."

Here is a pretty good overview of some techniques from Fine Woodworking. https://www.finewoodworking.com/media/TabletopsFlat.pdf

[Pat Barry]

Ok, I will stick with 3/4" dowels. Sorry about missing your earlier question. I have plunge router, router bits, router table, table saw, circular saw, etc... My plan was to drill all of the dowel holes to size and then use the router to create the slots where necessary, but now my issue is finding a router bit that will go deep enough (at least 3") that I don't have to chisel forever.

My only hesitation with the spline method is keeping the line straight on both pieces. This hickory table top is heavy and fairly unwieldy, so I'm not sure how I could route that deep enough effectively while maintaining a straight line.

I'm just trying to split the difference between assembling the table top in a manner that won't ruin it over time and not trying to do something too complicated/risky because I wasn't aware of this breadboard issue and therefore didn't plan for it.

I'm feeling pretty stupid/upset/worried right now. Lesson = learned for sure.

Lets say you go with the 3/4 inch dowels. I'd use oak dowels for example. I don't think you need to go too deep, especially into the end grain of the table top. I think you could go with a hole that is 1 1/2 in deep and it will be great as this is being glued in. The biggest thing to be concerned with is getting them in there straight, at least not angled up and down - left to right won't bother much. Like Glen stated I'd go for the ore is better approach so put them every 4 inches (for eexample). Into the bread board ends you would use your router and get the dowel hole (center or center couple) and slots done carefully using your router table. I agree with earlier idea of leaving it thicker if need be and planing down after assembly. You should be able to make the slots pretty easily - just make sure you do the depth in subsequent passes to not take too much of a bite with each pass and also make sure the fence and featherboards are set up nice and tight so they don't move on you. As far as depth into the breadboard I would try for about 2 1/4" - deeper is better I think but not at the expense of a sloppy fit to the dowels (up and down). Good luck - you can do it.

[Kent A Bathurst]

Maybe a dumb question but why would anyone want to ever use breadboard ends if the edge of the table is often times going to not align with the ends of the breadboard due to expansion and contraction? Seems like it would look terrible and wife would complain about the discontinuity

1 Because they look cool, and demonstrate a next-level of effort/skill at the craft.
2 Because they perform a needed function, and can take the table top's life into multiple generations.
3 Because they look cool.

And - yep - basically the end's length never matches the table's width. To the cognoscenti that is admirable. If you want the look of dead-square corners, then don't bother with them, and that's cool too. But - not quite as cool.

[Anthony Brown]

Lets say you go with the 3/4 inch dowels. I'd use oak dowels for example. I don't think you need to go too deep, especially into the end grain of the table top. I think you could go with a hole that is 1 1/2 in deep and it will be great as this is being glued in. The biggest thing to be concerned with is getting them in there straight, at least not angled up and down - left to right won't bother much. Like Glen stated I'd go for the ore is better approach so put them every 4 inches (for eexample). Into the bread board ends you would use your router and get the dowel hole (center or center couple) and slots done carefully using your router table. I agree with earlier idea of leaving it thicker if need be and planing down after assembly. You should be able to make the slots pretty easily - just make sure you do the depth in subsequent passes to not take too much of a bite with each pass and also make sure the fence and featherboards are set up nice and tight so they don't move on you. As far as depth into the breadboard I would try for about 2 1/4" - deeper is better I think but not at the expense of a sloppy fit to the dowels (up and down). Good luck - you can do it.

Thanks for the info/vote of confidence! Yeah, my biggest concern with going the dowel route is the up and down movement that you described. Other than that I feel fairly confident going down that route, but after hearing everyone else's opinion, I'm unsure now. I basically don't know what I am going to do, but I need to get moving on this thing as soon as possible. I may see if there is a way for me to go the spline route if others think it's better, even though I am more hesitant to do it. I just feel like I have more room for error with drilling dowels than I do running a big spline in my parts. But if the spline route is the better way to go, then it bears investigation on my part.

Color me stuck, but I'm going to have to place a stake in the ground and make a choice very soon...good, bad, or indifferent.

[Matt Day]

I'd much prefer you go the spline route, but you seem pretty stuck on not reducing the length of the top. With your reservations with the dowel route, it would be a lot simpler task to make long cuts for the spline. That jig I referenced would work well for cutting the mortise in the top.

[Anthony Brown]

I'd much prefer you go the spline route, but you seem pretty stuck on not reducing the length of the top. With your reservations with the dowel route, it would be a lot simpler task to make long cuts for the spline. That jig I referenced would work well for cutting the mortise in the top.

Could I just make grooves in both the table and breadboard with the router and use a piece of wood to join them? That way I don't have to reduce the length of the table?

So basically make a 3" deep x however long cut in the breadboard and do the same to the table, and then use a 6" x however long piece of wood to join them? That way the table doesn't get shorter?

[Malcolm McLeod]

Could I just make grooves in both ...?

Yes, just make sure you orient the grain in your 'floating spline' (or is this a floating tenon?) properly. Else, your first cherry pie could snap it off.

[Anthony Brown]

Yes, just make sure you orient the grain in your 'floating spline' (or is this a floating tenon?) properly. Else, your first cherry pie could snap it off.

Maybe I will see about doing that then. Given that my wood is 6/4, should I go 1/2" or 3/4" thick for the "floating tenon"?

[Matt Day]

either should be fine. The rule of thirds would say 1/2". As I discussed a couple pages ago, you will need to do a glue up to make the spline so the grain is oriented. Don't think you'll be able to just mill down a single piece of lumber to size - grain will be off 90*.

[Jim Dwight]

I would use 1/2 only because it's easier and IMHO strong enough. The reason I didn't recommend a spiral upcut bit or even a bottom cutter straight bit is the difficulty using them into the end grain of the top. You need to stand the top on end and get above it. It could be done with the top horizontal but I wouldn't. It's too hard to manipulate the router that way. I do it when putting hardware on bed rails but I orient the rail at an angle so it is between horizontal and vertical. I am also removing a lot less material. If you want to go an inch or so into both pieces (no way I would go 3 inches, maybe 2) I would make a jig you can clamp on both sides - a simple L shape - so you have a flat surface of some size to orient to. I would prefer to have a template guide for this kind of cut so you don't have to use an edge guide and have the bit more guided. That wouldn't be hard to make from plywood scrap. I would definitely use a plunge router and take pretty small bites (another reason to go 1/2 inch). I would probably do the bread board end on a router table. If you do not have one, you could use the same jig on it.

If you haven't made the breadboard end yet, could you just put the tenon on it? It isn't the conventional way but I don't see where it makes any difference. That would mean you only have to slot the top. You could also make a long spline (like only 1/2 in) and 3 to 5 longer tenons where you would glue (in the center) and possibly peg (at the outside from the bottom - in oversized holes). If you do not have a problem making the deep slot this wouldn't be necessary but I think it is not going to be fun.

[Anthony Brown]

I would use 1/2 only because it's easier and IMHO strong enough. The reason I didn't recommend a spiral upcut bit or even a bottom cutter straight bit is the difficulty using them into the end grain of the top. You need to stand the top on end and get above it. It could be done with the top horizontal but I wouldn't. It's too hard to manipulate the router that way. I do it when putting hardware on bed rails but I orient the rail at an angle so it is between horizontal and vertical. I am also removing a lot less material. If you want to go an inch or so into both pieces (no way I would go 3 inches, maybe 2) I would make a jig you can clamp on both sides - a simple L shape - so you have a flat surface of some size to orient to. I would prefer to have a template guide for this kind of cut so you don't have to use an edge guide and have the bit more guided. That wouldn't be hard to make from plywood scrap. I would definitely use a plunge router and take pretty small bites (another reason to go 1/2 inch). I would probably do the bread board end on a router table. If you do not have one, you could use the same jig on it.

If you haven't made the breadboard end yet, could you just put the tenon on it? It isn't the conventional way but I don't see where it makes any difference. That would mean you only have to slot the top. You could also make a long spline (like only 1/2 in) and 3 to 5 longer tenons where you would glue (in the center) and possibly peg (at the outside from the bottom - in oversized holes). If you do not have a problem making the deep slot this wouldn't be necessary but I think it is not going to be fun.

I already have all of the pieces cut to size (not super-exact, but close enough), so cutting a tenon on it would reduce the length, unless you mean physically making and gluing a tenon onto it. Also, I am a bit confused, when discussing the dowel route it was recommended that deeper (like 4" or so) was better, but for this route, it seems like 2 " is deep enough and maybe even too deep. I do have an almost 6.75" W breadboard, so do you think that 1" is deep enough to hold that well?

[Malcolm McLeod]

I gotta learn to be more precise..!! I think the 3" deep reference came from me, and is something I did recently. It was in response to comment that you 'could only go 1/2" deep'. 3" is NOT what I'm suggesting here. Unless of course its what you want....?

Left up to me I'd probably go 2". Its a nice round number, its probably over-kill strong, and I would not be in full swivel panic trying to cut it while standing on top of my bench.

The glue and bearing area is significantly more than dowels, so depth can be reduced.

[Anthony Brown]

I gotta learn to be more precise..!! I think the 3" deep reference came from me, and is something I did recently. It was in response to comment that you 'could only go 1/2" deep'. 3" is NOT what I'm suggesting here. Unless of course its what you want....?

Let up to me I'd probably go 2". Its a nice round number, it probably over-kill strong, and I would not be in full swivel panic trying to cut it while standing on top of my bench.

The glue and bearing area is significantly more than dowels, so depth can be reduced.

Got it. So with dowels more depth is needed, but with a tenon of some sort I can cut down on the depth because it's much stronger.