Space needed for full size slider...

[Kevin Nathanson]

BTW, this is a pretty good auction for the caliber of equipment you are looking for:

http://www.machinerymax.com/Listing/Browse?Seller=AWI

You don't see Martin saws come up for auction very often!

K

[Erik Loza]

Just my opinion, which anyone can accept or reject as they like: If you're buying used and if you're just a hobbyist, I would NOT buy any machine with electronics. Regardless of how good the build quality is. Cannot tell you the number of guys I've talked to who got that "deal too good to be true" and then by the time Parts and Service got through with them, they could have had a new machine.

The thing to remember is that machines like an Elmo or a programmable Martin slider (and the SCM Class or Invincible, for that matter) are only sold new, with installation and a service contract by the dealer. They will need routine maintenance and calibration. For a hobbyist or one-person shop, a machine with electronics can make sense if you are buying new, since you have a warranty and possibly even install and service but realize that if something like a board or a servo goes out on a used machine, it will probably be down for a while and 100% on the owner to repair. Again, just my 2-cents.

Erik

[David Hawxhurst]

It works good for straight line ripping wider board's,but for ripping narrow stock like face frame material, a standard table saw with a power feeder works much better.

this would seem more like a production environment to me and not a kitchen or two that a hobbyist would build.

i have no problems cutting/ripping narrow face frame stock. there is more than oneway to do this.

[Max Neu]

this would seem more like a production environment to me and not a kitchen or two that a hobbyist would build.

i have no problems cutting/ripping narrow face frame stock. there is more than oneway to do this.

I guess we all have our own idea of production setups,but I certainly wouldn't consider cutting narrow strips with a conventional tablesaw (like a Powermatic or unisaw) a production setup,just safer and easier than doing it on a slider.I have cut narrow strips of solid wood on my slider in the past,I just never found it to be very practical.

[Gregory Stahl]

The WA 80 saws are made in Germany and roll of the same assembly line as the the F45s and Elmos. There is a video of them in production on youtube, and I checked one in person. The lower line of saws are of asian origins.

A new F45 is low to mid $30k and the WA 80 is about $21k.

The Altendorf WA Series saws are made in China, the F-Series ones are still made in-house. Expect to pay over $20k for a new F45. I'd imagine new Martin sliders start at the $30k range.

[Peter Kelly]

The WA 80 saws are made in Germany and roll of the same assembly line as the he F45s and Elmos. There is a video of them in production on youtube, and I checked one in person. The lower line of saws are of asian origins.

A new F45 is low to mid $30k and the WA 80 is about $21k.

I stand corrected. WA 80 made in Germany, WA 8 made in Qinhuangdao.

The OP migh note the drawings shown on the PDFs linked above. Neither will fit through a 37.5" wide door, even with the wagon removed.

[Patrick Walsh]

Wow thanks for the link.

I already registered and bid on a item!

BTW, this is a pretty good auction for the caliber of equipment you are looking for:

http://www.machinerymax.com/Listing/Browse?Seller=AWI

You don't see Martin saws come up for auction very often!

K

[Patrick Walsh]

I would have to agree with you on this one.

On the other hand i did just purchase a jointer planer combo with electronic control of the planer table. I could had gotten the machine without this feature and knew it was just something else to break. I did ask the cost involved if the circuit board does go and how complicated it would be to fix myself. I liked the answer enough to just go for it.

Again on a slider i will be really temped to have all the bells and whistles but have to admit it does make me very nervous.

The fact is most of the high end machines i am looking at all seem to have these features pretty standard. Well unless like many machines you can get a stripped down version that is all mechanical. I cant see this being the case with Martin or Altendorf.

Just my opinion, which anyone can accept or reject as they like: If you're buying used and if you're just a hobbyist, I would NOT buy any machine with electronics. Regardless of how good the build quality is. Cannot tell you the number of guys I've talked to who got that "deal too good to be true" and then by the time Parts and Service got through with them, they could have had a new machine.

The thing to remember is that machines like an Elmo or a programmable Martin slider (and the SCM Class or Invincible, for that matter) are only sold new, with installation and a service contract by the dealer. They will need routine maintenance and calibration. For a hobbyist or one-person shop, a machine with electronics can make sense if you are buying new, since you have a warranty and possibly even install and service but realize that if something like a board or a servo goes out on a used machine, it will probably be down for a while and 100% on the owner to repair. Again, just my 2-cents.

Erik

[Kevin Nathanson]

The electronics are truly a double-edged sword. They are nice to have, but they also can cripple the machine if they break and there is no manual way to make the adjustments you need. My Felder is almost all manual; it has an external motor rigged up to adjust the blade height, and it has an aftermarket Tigerstop rip fence. If either one of those failed I could fall back to the manual mode (although it would be a pain to swap out the tigerstop...)
The nice thing about electronics in a non-production shop (production shops benefit from the set-up speed) is the repeatability. When things adjust back to the thousandth, that makes replicating parts, fitting jigs, etc. very simple. Even on my manual machines I at least try to have digital read outs (DRO) so that I can do things in an accurate and repeatable fashion.

K

[Patrick Walsh]

Really it is the repeatability that i desire in the electronics.

I am going to have to choose wisely with regard to all this. Part of that may be talking with a rep from each manufacturer about the cost and time involved in fixing a machine down due to electronics failure.

For instance my new AD941 arrived up and the tables are not coplanar. I could screw with it myself or pay a Felder tech to come fix it for me and show me how to do it myself the next time.

I'm paying the tech for a visit. Its expensive but not crazy expensive.

Oh and i won a Sawsall. Im a builder for gods sake.

I would cut a bigger door opening but i made a solid teak door and jamb for the doorway in question just last year. It cost me about 2K in materials. Plus i just really really like the door. No way i am screwing with it. I could pull it but then i would have to cut the opening in my foundation wider. I could do that also as i have a cut off saw but then my door would be to narrow

I loose...

The electronics are truly a double-edged sword. They are nice to have, but they also can cripple the machine if they break and there is no manual way to make the adjustments you need. My Felder is almost all manual; it has an external motor rigged up to adjust the blade height, and it has an aftermarket Tigerstop rip fence. If either one of those failed I could fall back to the manual mode (although it would be a pain to swap out the tigerstop...)
The nice thing about electronics in a non-production shop (production shops benefit from the set-up speed) is the repeatability. When things adjust back to the thousandth, that makes replicating parts, fitting jigs, etc. very simple. Even on my manual machines I at least try to have digital read outs (DRO) so that I can do things in an accurate and repeatable fashion.

K

[Jim Becker]

It's important to check the manufacturer's specifications for each machine you are considering. While you can "approximate" between "similar" machines, they each may have slightly different requirements. My MiniMax S315WS with the 8'6" wagon requires about 19' to accommodate the total throw of the slider. I recently cut down the right side table by 16" so that I could leave the outrigger on full time and still be able to walk around the saw with material loaded...this due to my shop's particular floor plan and the location of my J/P.

[ian maybury]

Post 28 Keith. I missed the bit about the kerf width making it impossible to saw an 8x4 into two 4x4s. Presuming that's an 'in' joke for you guys?

It'd be dead interesting to hear how you get on with the tech on the 941 Patrick. It's completely understandable why as a busy person you have chosen to go that route, but it's got to be a concern that a new machine should require a tech on a paid basis - if nothing else it eliminates much of the motivation for the factory to get it right during assembly. Interesting too to hear if the bullet is bitten in terms of his delivering a precision set up, and/or if expensive parts are replaced under warranty should it prove necessary to enable this. e.g. should the tables turn out not to be properly flat or whatever.

You're a class higher in terms of price point, but I was through the mill in 2011 with badly out of flat tables on a 16in Hammer machine which was a mess as delivered, and in absence of help being made available except on a paid basis (it wasn't run due to illness until it was just out of warranty - but the whole affair left a very bad taste) i ended up scraping them flat and setting the machine up myself.

Their claimed acceptable out of flatness tolerance for the tables was an enormous (if the machine was to joint consistently) 0.010in. i'd love to know what the equivalent number for the 941 is.

I'm not in the US, but would want to avoid the state of dependence created by electronics like the plague. Maybe if i was a commercial shop for whom they generated a definite payback/ROI after likely service and replacement costs were factored in, or if cost wasn't a factor for me...

[Joe Jensen]

I have a ICS SawStop.

I just want the slider. Mostly as i work with rough lumber and the ease of putting a straight edge on wood without breaking out the track saw would be sweet.

Plus for work purposes i do build cabinets and built ins from time to time. It sure wouldn't stink to have a slider for that task either. The spindle shaper combo machine is real attractive and hence Felder.

Do you really think Altendorf and Martin are really that superior to High end Felder machine or Format4?

I cant help but kinda agree that waiting cant hurt. Plus who knows what these saws will be like in 5 more years

I have a Felder KF700SP. I had a SawStop ICS before the Felder and a PM66 before that. The Felder is made in Austria and a huge step up from cabinet saws. I lust after a Martin but having said that, the Martin is built to handle minimum wage workers slamming stacks of sheet goods on top of it for 30 years. Way overkill for a home shop. I can't imagine in my home shop knocking the Felder out of alignment.

Also, Felder makes their stuff in Austria. Some of the new Altendorf stuff is made in China.

[Erik Loza]

...I recently cut down the right side table by 16" so that I could leave the outrigger on full time and still be able to walk around the saw with material loaded...this due to my shop's particular floor plan and the location of my J/P.

I have a customer who did pretty much the same thing: Basically, "didn't" install the steel rip table, then butted that side of the saw up against the wall. I won't post pictures without his permission but he's been doing it that way for years and no issues.

All that being said, I thibk the biggest mitigating factor for the OP is the 37.5" doorway. Only the smallest sliders will fit through that. Certainly none of the industrial ones.

Erik

[Gregory Stahl]

Also, Felder makes their stuff in Austria. Some of the new Altendorf stuff is made in China.

Again, WA8 and below are made in China to reach a price point--probably still nicer than any Felder. Higher class machines made in Germany.

Anybody looking to buy a new Felder really should price an Altendorf--even the lower end Martin saws. You will be surprised! I priced a Format 4. For nearly the same price I bought the Altendorf F45. No options to negotiate, just a nice, well equipped saw for a great price. The Altendorf was better equipped too, included enough riving knives for virtually any blade I would ever buy. Stiles was running a promo a few months ago--F45 for a grand or two under $30k.

I like the SCMI saws too. Even the older green Hydro saws have a much nicer table than the Felder X-roll. I owned a Felder K915 for 6+ years. Worst table lock mechanism ever designed. Loose tables as the X-roll requires some clearance for the bearings as they are flat and wide. Flat and wide bearings roll over dust instead of cutting through it.

Greg