Glowforge release

[Lee DeRaud]

In fact it might be wise to separate the Western machines, Chinese machines and the Glowforge machines into three forum areas if that is preferable to the majority here. Note that if this happens the people who are new to laser engraving will surely lose the valuable input from those who are the most experienced as there would probably be some pressure for everyone to stay in their own forum area. Remember also that although hardware and software can vary significantly the basic techniques we discuss are for the most part common to every machine. If we have to argue about what thread fits in what forum I will need additional Moderators willing to be referees and topic supervisors. This forum is extremely valuable to a large number of people so lets not be hasty and ruin something that is unique and an amazing resource we all enjoy.

Perhaps rather than separating by brand/origin, the subforums could separate into materials/techniques, HW/SW upgrades, and tutorials/troubleshooting.

[Bert Kemp]

I'd have to agree with Kev keep it the way it is. One suggestion so you don't have to search thru 100's of pgs is to use the advanced search. Also while searching and you find useful info make a folder on your desktop or some place and copy and paste that info in your folder. I've asked a lot of corel ?'s and I keep the responses in a folder so I can always look back to see how to do something.I do that with other info here also.

[Doug Fisher]

I'd have to agree with Kev keep it the way it is.

Agreed. If the forums get too fractured the knowledge base will not be as useful.

[chase standifer]

I appreciate the open discussion and attempts to move this forward. I too think one forum is better for everyone will lead to the most effect spreading of knowledge. Like I said I will post an open and honest review of my Glowforge when I receive it. I have no problem eating crow if it doesn't live up to my expectations. Any of the "vaporware" accusers willing to do the same?

That was me and I stand by my statement. 11 years ago when I joined this forum Chinese lasers weren't even on the market, not like today anyway. This forum was 99% related to mainstream lasers and you could get a lot of useful info by just scanning a few pages. Fast forward 10 years to the "Chinese laser era" and the vast majority of posts are about troubleshooting Chinese lasers, upgrading Chinese lasers, or asking what Chinese laser is the best one to buy. If you have a question about a mainstream laser or want to do research on one, you have to wade through page after page of Chinese laser posts just to find anything about your question or interest. Why are there so many posts? Two reasons - the number of Chinese lasers sold vs. the numbers of mainstream is quite large, and second, the typical buyer of a Chinese laser is a hobbyist that has relatively little, or no, experience running computer based equipment. Both of these reasons mean that there will be a large number of posts that are useless to mainstream laser users because of the nature of the post. It's not elitist to say that a Ferrari owner can't get help on a Chevrolet forum, it's just a statement of fact, and why I would advocate for a separate forum for Chinese lasers as a way to better serve each group.

So again, because someone doesn't have a top of the line laser they shouldn't have as easy access to the experience and knowledge of some of the serious users on here? Tell me, if they made separate forums would you ever go into the Chinese or Glowforge forums? So you now you have groups of people, who by your own example are inexperienced, in separate forums not getting their questions answered by those with the knowledge. Like I said earlier, you may not have meant it that way but your comment still comes across as elitist.

Ok. This laser may not be less or more dangerous. But I can tell you my laser was not advertised working in a kitchen. So while the product may not be the advertising may make people thing that it's save to run in a kitchen. That can cause a more dangerous situation.

I kind of wish the Glowforge would just release the product and then we will see if it's a good or bad product.

They have released productions units, an unknown number at this point but they are definitely out in the wild with real people, we would should see some reviews soon I would imagine. In reality you could use any laser in any room you were willing to dedicate the space to...you just may need a 15' exhaust hose. Like I said, I am sure that the Glowforge instructions stress the importance of properly exhausting the laser in the instructions, just like any other laser.

First, as with many other forums, NO BRAND BASHING allowed. To point out known deficiencies or safety issues with certain machines is totally acceptable. But posting up to simply assert a negative "if you'd bought something else" attitude should not be allowed. Mods could delete these types of posts, and soon they'll simply stop...

^^^^^^This, I don't believe anyone has an issue with technical discussions on the limitations of any laser. Ala the previously mentioned DPI engraving post. But trashing any product in any forum with no specific critiques or point should not be tolerated. This thread might only be 20 pages long if we went through and deleted all of the speculation, random and unproven attacks on Dan, and "vaporware" posts. I frequent a firearms training forum that had banned brand and trainer bashing from day one. If you don't like a product you need to be able to tell why the product is bad in specific terms based off of experience, if you don't like a certain instruction thats fine, but you bad better be speaking from the experience of receiving that instructors training and not 2nd or 3rd hand info. Offending posts are immediately deleted and repeat offenders are simply banned.

[Dave Sheldrake]

There is brad bashing then there is calling out when claims are in contravention to several well know laws of laser photonics and operation

[Bill George]

So Chase I have been trying to figure out what laser machine you have and how long you have operated one? The Elite folks on here own and operate lasers, perhaps that is the reason we can see through the advertising hype or paid reviews. Why? Because they know how lasers work and the limitations. A lot of these Elite folks also have experience with other CNC equipment.

[Scott Shepherd]

Not that my vote means anything, but I'm all for separate forums. People against it mention that you would lose knowledge if they were separated. News flash, you've already lost a LOT of knowledge from people that don't post any more because every day, it's 20 posts about how to get their Chinese lasers running. I keep in contact with a number of forum members outside the forum bounds and when asked why don't they post much anymore, it's always the same answer. And it's not in a "I have better equipment than they do", it's just the daily grind of sorting through "which chiller should I get" and "has anyone ordered a laser from 'neverheardofbeforelasercompany'?" It's not a matter of elitism. People come here on their own free time and if they have to spend time sorting through things that don't apply to them, it becomes more of a chore than a pleasure and they stop posting.

Go back 3 years ago and see who the contributors were to this forum. Who were the "go to" people who you had questions or issues? Where are they now?

There's nothing wrong with buying a Chinese machine or a GF if that's what you want and your budget allows. However, it works both ways. Buying a $3,000 laser and beating your chest, saying that it's superior to any of the 3 mainstream manufacturers machine is nonsense. When disputed, many of us become the "elite". We didn't say a word until inaccurate statements were made, and then all we did was correct the facts. That doesn't make us elite. It keeps people from reading things on the internet that aren't true and having someone else read it as the truth.

[chase standifer]

I don't own a laser which is why I haven't gotten involved in the technical discussions since I don't have the expertise. My posts have been based around why a Glowforge is attractive to a laser layperson like myself. I have never claimed that the Glowforge is better than any other laser, and I believe I am being pretty honest with myself on its limitations.

Scott, correcting bad information in one thing. But page after page of this thread has been pointless bashing of the Glowforge based off of speculation or dislike of the founder, company policies, or things like the cloud functionality. Hell the first page of this thread implied that the whole thing might be a scam and that the money would disappear to an island. But given the delays Beta testers were allowed to start posting about their machines at about half way through this thread. That means we made it through 20 some odd pages of how terrible/great this machine is, how the company will never deliver a machine, the founder is a scam artist, how whole neighborhoods are going to be gassed or burned down, etc. All with absolutely zero real world knowledge of the machine. Even when videos of Glowforge working were posted the accusations were that it couldn't have possibly come off of a Glowforge and that people wouldn't believe it worked until they saw it in person with their own eyes.

Bill, what has Glowforge (the company itself, not customer speculation) promised as a capability that they haven't followed through on yet? As of right now the only software functionality that is not complete is the auto alignment when you flip over a project when using the pass through slot on the pro model. What proof do you have of paid reviews? The Tested crew were earlier supporters of the project and were sent a pre-release unit but several member of Tested purchased Glowforge with their own money as discussed in the past of their podcast.

[Lee DeRaud]

I don't own a laser which is why I haven't gotten involved in the technical discussions since I don't have the expertise. My posts have been based around why a Glowforge is attractive to a laser layperson like myself. I have never claimed that the Glowforge is better than any other laser, and I believe I am being pretty honest with myself on its limitations.

And I have exactly zero issues with that. If the Glowforge Faithful had stuck to that approach, none of these threads would have made it into double-digits in posts, much less pages.

What actually happened was that people who did not own and had never operated a laser proceeded to tell us, in no uncertain terms, that our collective experience was meaningless and irrelevant in the face of the oncoming glory that was Glowforge, a series of increasingly condescending arguments that ultimately devolved to "You just don't get it."

That dog won't hunt.

[Scott Shepherd]

how whole neighborhoods are going to be gassed or burned down, etc. All with absolutely zero real world knowledge of the machine. Even when videos of Glowforge working were posted the accusations were that it couldn't have possibly come off of a Glowforge and that people wouldn't believe it worked until they saw it in person with their own eyes.

Want an honest review? Put one in the hands of someone that doesn't do tech blogs, tech articles, or write for tech magazines for a living. Put one in the hands of a real world, unpaid, person that has experience with lasers and let them review it. That's never happened. Instead, it's all non-disclosure agreements, paid "reviews" that look like real reviews, only to find out later that it was really a paid for review, etc. Go on Reddit and see how they paid for positive reviews, or articles that said nothing but positive stuff about them.

You don't have to own a GF to understand lasers and their dangers. We have 3 lasers and have been running lasers for 10 years now. We've lasered over 1,000,000 parts. Yes, 1,000,000. You'd think we'd be tuned into the safety of lasers. When I tell you we had a fire on our laser, while standing in front of it, watching it, would you be surprised? They are dangerous. They catch fire. That's what they do. It's not a leap to say that since skilled operators with a decade of experience can experience a fire, that it stands to reason that if 500,000 people have GF's in their homes, that they are going to experience fires. That's not a guess, that's not an estimate, that's a fact. Now, do those users have the experience to know how dangerous they are, or how to handle it? Or will they be in the other room watching TV because they know their GF will be cutting for 30 more minutes. Putting a note in the instructions that say "Do not leave machine unattended" might save GF from a law suit, but it isn't going to translate to reality when it's sitting in a kitchen running and some kid calls their parent into the other room.

The problem in this thread has never been the people who bought them, it's been the way it was sold, with a lot of smoke and mirrors. The mere fact it's still called a 3D laser printer proves my point. It's NOT a 3D laser printer. It might be a 3D laser engraver, but it's not a 3D laser printer.

They'll sell millions of them, I'm sure. Just like the Cricut cutters. People said they were going to allow home users to put sign companies out of business. Never happened. Just like Shapeoko's never put people with CNC routers out of business. If anything, it cuts all the noise out of the market, which is fine with me.

[Gary Hair]

Very well said!

Not that my vote means anything, but I'm all for separate forums. People against it mention that you would lose knowledge if they were separated. News flash, you've already lost a LOT of knowledge from people that don't post any more because every day, it's 20 posts about how to get their Chinese lasers running. I keep in contact with a number of forum members outside the forum bounds and when asked why don't they post much anymore, it's always the same answer. And it's not in a "I have better equipment than they do", it's just the daily grind of sorting through "which chiller should I get" and "has anyone ordered a laser from 'neverheardofbeforelasercompany'?" It's not a matter of elitism. People come here on their own free time and if they have to spend time sorting through things that don't apply to them, it becomes more of a chore than a pleasure and they stop posting.

Go back 3 years ago and see who the contributors were to this forum. Who were the "go to" people who you had questions or issues? Where are they now?

There's nothing wrong with buying a Chinese machine or a GF if that's what you want and your budget allows. However, it works both ways. Buying a $3,000 laser and beating your chest, saying that it's superior to any of the 3 mainstream manufacturers machine is nonsense. When disputed, many of us become the "elite". We didn't say a word until inaccurate statements were made, and then all we did was correct the facts. That doesn't make us elite. It keeps people from reading things on the internet that aren't true and having someone else read it as the truth.

[Bert Kemp]

+1 Scott nail on the head.I had a fire back in 2013 I think it was and the fire was contained inside the metal case. I hate to think what happens when a laser with a plastic case catches fire.

[John Lifer]

Chase, I've bashed GF badly. I'll admit that. But their original advert actually got me more deeply looking at lasers and their use. And when I OPENED my EYES, I found the none on GF's claims were real. And that at most they will be a similar item as a 3d printer. A toy. But a much more dangerous toy. Fire risk is real, and even at low power, thing won't be pretty for some folks. I really can't imagine any gf owners coming here for anything. Software is gf, support will be all gf, and even design will be gf. And btw, I own a cheap Chinese laser. Dang I'm not bashing or even comparing either of mine to Epilog, trotec, or even uls. Well, maybe uls..... Miles apart. Gf is and unfortunately for thousands, will continue to be an expensive toy. And that's a fact!

[chase standifer]

Scott, I think that we will soon be seeing more reviews from real people with production units. Time will tell. Again, show me proof of paid reviews, not just conjecture or guesses. I see one post on Reddit in regards to Boingboing, one instance does not mean every review is from a paid schill. I can only speak intelligently about Tested's review since I have followed their website in general for years. But, their review video was in fact not a 100% glowing review. Were they happy with the machine? Yes, but they were also critical several areas such as the software for the trace function was at that point as well as other software issues like not being able to use to the full bed size at the time and a couple other small issues. This was back in January and those problems have been rectified according to other PRU users. I think we will continue to view risk in general very differently.

John, what claims of GF are false? If you think 3D printers are toys you should probably look into the technology again. They have a steep learning curve, but even consumer level machines can do some amazing things now. Form labs actually has a resin now that allows you to print an object and then use it to do lost investment casting. I'm not arguing that the GF is anything but a hobby level/beginner machine but even as late as it is the company is fulfilling their promises in what the machine can accomplish.

[Scott Shepherd]

Scott, I think that we will soon be seeing more reviews from real people with production units.

No, what you'll see then in a classic case of Confirmation Bias. "I bought one and it's amazing". People who paid money for something they selected isn't the same thing as an objective review. Put one in an environment where it's tested against other laser engraving machines, Chinese and Western. Run it through a battery of tests and report the results. Having someone that bought one say how great it is proves absolutely nothing. Ever heard of a friend or family with a new car that said it was horrific and the worst thing they ever bought, 2 weeks after buying it? Probably not. Confirmation Bias. If anyone isn't familiar with it, here's a link to get you started.... https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog...firmation-bias