Bad Axe v. Gramercy dovetail saw hang angle

[Andrew Ahern]

Hi guys,

I'm curious if anyone has used both the Gramercy and Bad Axe dovetail saws and can comment on the difference in feel between the very different hang angles?

I'm considering both and am not sure which way to go. For reference, I have the Veritas carcass saw and don't really like the medium hang it has for DTs. My hand never feels like it's in the right spot. My vintage Disston sash saw (lower hang) feels better but is more of a crosscut saw.

Thanks
Andrew

[ken hatch]

Andrew,

I have both Bad Axe and Gramercy dovetail saws. Maybe I'm too ham handed to notice the difference in "Hang" but I hadn't until I read your post. I had to go to the shop and put one on top of the other to see the difference for myself. While I hadn't noticed difference in hang the saws do feel different while sawing. I have two Bad Axe 10" DT saws and the 12" "Stilleto" DT saw, and the Gramercy DT. There are a few more DT saws in the till as well but you didn't ask about them.

Of the three I use the Bad Axe 12"DT more than the others, mostly because of the extra two inches and it is very aggressive as are the 10" Bad Axe saws, plus most of my dovetails are larger. For smaller dovetails in thinner stock I will use the Gramercy 90% of the time, while not as aggressive it has a wonderful feel and control, and leaves a very nice surface. It is so light it is almost an extension of your hand.

I know I didn't answer your question about hang but if I were buying again it would depend on the type of DT's and the stock I planned to work most of the time. Either would work but for smaller DTs I would go with Gramercy, larger DTs the 12" Bad Axe or if I could just have one saw for almost everything the Bax Axe 12" Hybrid is as good as saws get.

ken

[mike holden]

Cant speak to the Bad Axe, but I have both the Lie-Nielsen and Gramercy dovetail saws and MUCH prefer the Gramercy.
The difference in feel to me is this: I push the Lie-Nielsen with my palm, I push the Gramercy with the webbing between thumb and forefinger.
I bought the Gramercy and used it on a run of five spice boxes (search for "580 hand-cut dovetails" here) and have not used the Lie-Nielsen since.
I am about to send it in for re-sharpening and am seriously considering buying a second Gramercy so I will not be without while the first is being sharpened.
Mike

[Ron Bontz]

Hi Andrew.
This subject has been talked about, written about numerous times. Everyone has an opinion on this sort of thing, but ultimately comes down to preferences and work methods. The Grammercy at about 45* hang will have a more natural aggressiveness ( downward force ), which may be off set, ( fine tuned ) by a thinner plate and/ or filing. The Bad Axe is on the opposite end of the spectrum at about 30* ( I think ) . You will need to verify that with Mark. I've sharpened a couple but don't own one. Again the less aggressive hang angle ( easier to push) is fine tuned to preference via plate thickness and filing. The Lie Nielsen is in the middle at about 40* hang. Simply put, the hang angle directly affects the natural downward force of the cutting stroke and over all feel. It is just a question of what works and feels best for you.You can find more information on Issac's site ( Blackburns Tools ) as well as various forums. Best wishes.

[Matthew N. Masail]

I'd say if you have a chance then go try the saw out, maybe you live near by someone who has one? I say this because handle fit to your hand is very important.

I have the Grammercy sash saw and the handle is too big for me, so much so I can't get a solid grip without squeezing all 4 fingers in it. it bothers me every time I use it.
the LN dovetail saw has my favorite handle of the saws I've used. I like the Veritas dovetail saw just fine as well but you say your not crazy about them, just another reason why try before you buy can really be worth the effort. I wish I had tried the Sash saw before buying, I would have put my money elsewhere. it's a very good saw, but the handle makes all the difference.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

I'm curious if anyone has used both the Gramercy and Bad Axe dovetail saws and can comment on the difference in feel between the very different hang angles?

I'm considering both and am not sure which way to go. For reference, I have the Veritas carcass saw and don't really like the medium hang it has for DTs. My hand never feels like it's in the right spot. My vintage Disston sash saw (lower hang) feels better but is more of a crosscut saw.

I have not used a Gramercy, but I do love my Bad Axe saw. Off hand, it sounds like the biggest issue for you may be hang angle. I may be mistaken, but the person I see speaking about this the most seems to be Ron Bontz, who also makes awesome saws (http://www.bontzsawworks.net/) and may be able to work with you with respect to the hang angle if you want him to build you a saw. Another item to consider is that perhaps you can experiment a bit and try making your own handle for a saw that you have... but I suppose that off hand you can probably not easily make a new handle for the Veritas saw.

Wish you lived closer, you could try some of my saws to see what you like from my collection.

[Russ Webb]

You've received excellent responses and suggestions. I'll only add my own experience because I did as Andrew Pitonyak suggested - I rehandled my Gramercy dovetail saw to suit my own taste (see pic of Gramercy with new cocobolo handle.)

I don't have a Bad Axe so can't compare directly to the hang angle/feel of a Bad Axe saw vs. Gramercy. But I do have several Lie-Nielsen saws and a few of my own making with similar hang angles to the Bad Axe. I much prefer angles of that range to that of the Gramercy saw.

I expected to love the Gramercy dovetail saw. I was surprised when I didn't. The handle was a bit too delicate/small and the hang angle simply didn't work for me. Try as I might I could not come to love it. So...I built a new handle that better fit my hand and preferences. I like it much, much better with the new handle. Before I rehandled the Gramercy saw I found I simply avoided using it. Now I use it for appropriate tasks.

The only way you'll know for sure is to try the saws out. Feel and preference is a very, very subjective thing.

image.jpeg

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Andrew

I wrote about the Gramercy dovetail saw a couple of years ago. It was then compared with the LN and a custom Wenzloff:

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolRev...vetailSaw.html

I like all three of these saws very much, but they are all so different in use, and there are a number of factors involved, not just hang angle.

The bottom line for the Gramercy - I cannot speak about the Bad Axe (never used one) - is that you have to hold it lightly. Then it responds like a thoroughbred.

Regards from London

Derek

[Andrew Ahern]

Thanks Ken!

I'm looking for one saw to cover standard carcass and drawer dimensions (1/2" to 3/4").

When you say thinner stock for the Gramercy are you referring to 1/2" or so? Any notes on using it for carcasses?

[Derek Cohen]

Andrew, you need to specify which woods you plan to saw most of the time. I am busy making drawers at this time. My Gramercy will cut 3/4" hardwood drawer fronts quite aggressively and then be too much for 1/2" soft wood drawer sides. For the latter I use a 20 ppi Wenzloff. If you want only one saw, then you should err on the side of caution and get the one for the softer wood. In this case, consider a LV 20 ppi dovetail saw, or similar.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[ken hatch]

Thanks Ken!

I'm looking for one saw to cover standard carcass and drawer dimensions (1/2" to 3/4").

When you say thinner stock for the Gramercy are you referring to 1/2" or so? Any notes on using it for carcasses?

If I were looking for one saw to cover most operations I would buy a Bad Axe 12" Hybrid Dovetail/small Tenon. If you leave off all the "bling" it will run less than $250 USD. It was my only good saw for a couple of years and it did everything I asked of it. I will still pick it up for dovetails and smaller tenons. Give Mark a call he will try to match you up with a good saw.

Good luck,

ken

[Andrew Ahern]

Thanks Derek.

I'm using mostly hand tool friendly North American species (white pine, oaks, walnut, cherry, ash). I've been using the LV rip carcass saw as an all rounder right now. I'm just not crazy about the handle and the hang for dovetails. Something about the angle always puts my wrist in the wrong spot. I've tried setting the board at different heights but nothing feels right.

[Simon MacGowen]

Andrew:

I noticed that you're from north of the border right there in Toronto. There are several LV stores in your location, if I am not wrong and the best (and lucky) thing for you is to drop by one of their stores and try out the dovetail saws they carry. I think they sell Bad Axe, Gramercy and a few other brands.

Also, I'd give them a call to find out which store has the best collection and/or experienced dovetailer/instructor available. Many can cut dovetails but not all can show you why one saw is better than another for you. A good teacher will watch how you hold and cut a piece with a saw, look at the results and try to tell you why a saw may or may not work for you given your feedback. On paper, every saw will work or will not. A person-to-person and hands on advice is free even if you decide not to buy anything. But I highly doubt that your conclusion is to get a dovetail saw elsewhere because nothing you try there works for you.

Simon

[Mike Siemsen]

I believe that there is a direct correlation between the hang of a saw and the angle of the rake. If a saw is too aggressive relax the rake. Not aggressive enough increase the rake angle. So the two saws in question could be made to cut similarly by adjusting the rake angle.

[Stewie Simpson]

Mike. Excellent advise.

Stewie;