Hammer K3 OR SawStop ICS

[Dan Schmidt]

Looking for best table saw setup I can get for less than $7000. I was about to pull the trigger on a SawStop ICS. Loaded with the 5HP motor, 52" fence, mobile base, overarm dust collection, and sliding table it totals $6246 on Amazon Prime (free shipping).
Then I saw a friends Hammer K3 Winner. The largest slider (79x48), mobility kit, and eccentric clamp would total $5814, but with shipping it would likely be at parity with the SawStop.

I like the idea of the SawStop safety feature, but the sliders are inherently safer than a traditional saw, and I want the best functionality as well. Looking for feedback from any of you; especially if you've used both.

[Susumu Mori]

I'm in Hammer camp. My experience with other TS are limited to a small TS. So, can't give you comparison with real cabinet saws, but I can see European sliders are really fantastic for anything long and/or wide.

Straight-line first rip, crosscuts of long boards, dimensioning table tops, sheets, are really excellent with the slider. All these work happens in the left side of the blade and I can keep comfortable distances. I recently did a lot of miter cuts of long stocks and the ease and accuracy are just fantastic. All parallel, perpendicular, and miters are dead-on. When it is delivered, you can see numerous small stickers on every single adjustable places confirming the setup. Very impressive.

So, far the only thing I found that Saw Stop could be clearly safer is the second parallel rip, which takes place at the right side of the blade against the rip fence. I have no problem doing it with Hammer just like regular cabinet saws but Hammers don't have the safety feature of Saw Stop. There are ways to do the second rip using the slider, but so far I found the traditional ripping using the rip fence is the simplest and most accurate. Other people may find it in different ways. For narrow second rip, which is nerve wracking for me, people may venture to do it using Saw Stop relying on the safety feature, but I would use my bandsaw for that.

One interesting difference is, I believe European TS spins faster (please correct me if I'm wrong). I've never done quantitative comparison but I feel cabinet saws are bit quieter. Another point to add is, zero-clearance plate is more difficult to make for sliders.

A couple of suggestions if you look into Hammer. The out rigger is REALLY great! The addition of shaper is VERY cool, but then soon you will find out that European machines start where cabinet saws end in terms of price.....

[Patrick Walsh]

If you find yourself wanting for a slider now just hunker down and make it happen. I have the ICS, i got it used for a steal. I love the saw i cant find a thing to complain about with regard to it. It's actaully a really really nice machine.

I like you however wanted a slider when i made the purchase but could not afford one at the time. Again at $1600 i could not pass on the SawStop.

Now having many of the bigger tool purchases for my shop my mind is wandering back to a slider. I will buy one probably about this time next year. You can find a nice 700 series Felder used for the 7K range if you are patient and pay attention to the fourums and auction houses.

I myself will purchase either a used machine from a reputable owner as i have a couple Felder machines now. Or a new 900 series or Format saw, maybe a Martin?

I'm not trying to talk you out of the SawStop, again its a great saw. Im just saying dont settle or you will regret it.

[Wakahisa Shinta]

I'm like Susumu, a Hammer owner. Back then, I looked at Sawstop, Powermatic, Delta, and Grizzly cabinet table saws. The SS technology is interesting, but not for me. One of my motivations at the time was a saw that helps me to process a lot of sheet goods quickly and accurately. I discovered sliding table saws and the European brands. I ended up with a Hammer K3 with a 79" sliding table.

The sliding table saw feels safer than the NA cabinet saws because I no longer stand at the front of the blade, thus in direct line of a kicking-back projectile. The only time I feel uneasy is with second parallel rip cut of thin stock (<2" wide), but there are ways to work around this. I use a jig which eliminates my hands having to be any where near the spinning blade. The method of work on a slider is very different vs. a NA cabinet saw. Setting up the slider is also more complicated than the NA cabinet saw. I am still working on the setting up part because I am particular and wants things to be precise.

Cutting plywood for boxes, cabinets, built-ins, drawer bottoms is fast, consistent, accurate (once set up dialed in), and a joy (especially with multiple flip stops). The 79" slider can't rip a 4x8 plywood sheet down the long edge, but can do 5x5 BB plywood with ease (just finish cutting a bunch of 6mm BB ply for drawer bottoms, took about an hour to cut up 5 sheets to various sizes). The scoring blade gives you perfect edge, tear-out free. With the rip fence set up properly, the slider works like a cabinet saw if one prefers that side of the blade. I now use the out-rigger table and sliding table predominantly.

Dado toolings can be bought from Felder, Forrest, or FS tools (I use FS tools). There is an extra charge to bore for Felder arbor and pins; ~$40.

Dust collection is excellent. I have only clean the cabinet twice in the last year. The amount of saw dust accumulated was not much.

The Hammer needs more space front and aft compared to the cabinet saw. The 79" slider needs 14 feet (167 5/8") for full side to side (RHS to LHS) travel.

Oh! The sliding table acts like a giant T-slot bar riding in the T-slot on a cabinet saw. You make a box joint cutting jig, attach it to the slider, set your dado blades and zero clearance insert and you have a massive iBox joint jig. Tenon cutting jig works similarly.

The saw is louder than a cabinet saw. The max size blade is ~12" or 300mm. With the scoring blade installed, you are limited to 250mm size blade.

I did not purchase Felder mobility kit. It allows essentially one axis travel, too awkward for my space. I also don't move my saw. There is debate about saw settings relative to moving it repeatedly.

[mreza Salav]

I agree with Patrick. Note that the ICS is the top end cabinet saw and the hammer is an entry level slider. I have a ICS and am quite happy with it (no complain).
Do I like a slider, definitely, but I'm sure if I get a small slider I'd want a bigger one (with at least 8' sliding capability). If you can find a Felder or SCM/minimax used at good condition you might get a lot more saw for the price you are paying.

[Rich Riddle]

Having used both in woodworking shops in the military bases, I chose the K3 Winner and have no regrets. I find a slider far more useful and gave up cutting full sheets on the table saw some time back. I have a track saw for complete sheets of plywood.

[James Zhu]

Definitely go for slider, so much better than traditional cabinet saw, this video ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVYUss6pJqQ ) from Felder shows all the nice features a slider offers.

Someone posted the following ad (MiniMax CU300 combination machine and MM16 bandsaw) in MiniMax USA forum 3 days ago.

http://columbus.craigslist.org/tls/5381171671.html

[David Kumm]

I'm a slider guy but would also caution that if you need to move it around you want as stout a build as you can find for the price. Machines are made with a light chassis than in the past and the longer the slider the apt it is to move when pulled around a concrete floor. I have sliders of all lengths and my favorites are either 10' or 4' Dave

[James Baker SD]

I used a PM-66 for 15 years in a home garage woodshop. It was a very good saw. I switched to a slider about 3 years and would never go back to the American style cabinet saw. In reference to an earlier comment, my slider is not mobile. It sits in one place and holds its alignment (a pain initially) very well.

[Frank Martin]

I sold my American made Unisaw and was planning to get an ICS. Then happened to find a Minimax CU 300 combo for about the same price. All I would say, I am very glad I went with the slider. If a slider with the SawStop technology were available, that would be the ultimate choice...

[Mike Henderson]

I have a SawStop but if I could have afforded a slider I would have gone that way. Like Patrick, I got my SawStop at a discount. But sliders tend to be a bit larger footprint and I also didn't have room - even if I could have afforded it.

Maybe one day I'll run into a deal I can't pass up.

Mike

[Kent Adams]

I know a lot of folks like SS. When I was buying, I looked at a used SS and a new PM2000. I didn't like the ICS. However, if I had to do it over again, I'd get a slider, either a MM, Hammer or Felder. The advantages of a slider are just too great.

[Rod Sheridan]

Dan, I have a Hammer B3 Winner with the 49 inch sliding table and comfort package. The nice thing bout Felder/Hammer is that you get to order exactly what you want.

I wanted the mid size slider with outrigger, scoring and dado capability, tilting spindle shaper and power feeder.

I would really recommend the saw/shaper over just the saw. Once you try out a tilting spindle shaper with a sliding table you'll know why.

You couldn't convince me to go back to a cabinet saw.............Regards, Rod.

[Peter Aeschliman]

I have the saws sawstop PCS, which I know is not what you're looking at. But I've done a lot of thinking on this subject and thought I would share what I've learned.

I rrally like my sawstop, but now wish I had a euro style slider, as it can be safer than a cabinet saw if used properly (no hand feeding using the rip fence). It also has far more utility than a cabinet saw because of the sliding table.

As another poster mentioned, the second parallel rip is the cut where most would just use the fence and hand feed the workpiece. This is one of the more dangerous operations on a table saw. My opinion is that on the whole, a SS is still safer than a euro saw if you insist on hand feeding your rip cuts.

The euro saw fences are usually designed to allow you to reposition the fence by sliding it toward the operator, thus eliminating the pinch zone at the back of the blade. This dramatically reduces the chance of kick back, so hand fed rip cuts are still safer on a euro machine than a non-sawstop cabinet saw... but the sawstop safety mechanism changes that equation in favor of the sawstop, imho.

So if safety is the primary objective, the key to a euro style saw is to not hand feed.

You can use the sliding table for the parallel rip cut with some fiddling, if you have enough slider stroke. So if i were you, i'd spring for an 8' stroke. Or you can get Hammer's power feeder with the fold down hinge accessory.

Safety aside, a sliding table saw can do far more than a cabinet saw... and the sliding table attachments for cabinet saws are nice (i have an excalibur), but they are nowhere near as nice as a true slider.

So, to sum up... my view is that a slider is a safer and more functional machine than a cabinet saw, as long as you don't hand feed your rip cuts, and as long as you get one with an 8' stroke.

Good luck.

[Patrick Walsh]

Gotta consider the the potential setup involved in a slider. If you cant or have not don't this type work before I would pay to have it setup by Felder. The. After it was setup you could not pay me to move it even a 1/2"...

On the flip side the SawStop is pretty much plug and play..