[OP]
Member
See? That's why I love this community... I needed a shoulder to cry on and complain to and as of right now, I got 44 of them!
OK, so I'm going to put the MKII in the drawer for now. That much I got. So many of you made the argument that I already have what I need to do a fair job. I'm going to re-read over all of these comments tonight and see if I can't put something together. I'll be back!
Thanks!
Contributor
I don't have a Mk II honing jig 1) because I've been too miserly to spend the $ on one, 2) because it seems I can do a 'fair' job of honing by feel (no doubt gets easier with experience). That said, I know I would have saved myself untold hours of frustration trying to learn the manual approach which I'm barely still adequate with. If I had the jig I would use it now because it takes variation out of the process to a large degree and virtually guarantees a straight true edge for a wide range of sharpening tasks. I guess I don't have the feel that some of the well practiced folks do around here but that's OK with meOriginally Posted by Mike Dowell
Contributor
Very well said George, and I think you provided useful information.... reminding me of all the things that I tried when I was first starting. The Charlesworth video is certainly worth watching. I have not watched it in a long time, but I have watched it a couple of times. I think that it provided my first successes.
I did not move on to powered sharpening until I had to "fix up" a bunch of abused chisels. After spending a few hours with sandpaper on a chisel that needed major work, I drove to Woodcraft and purchased a powered something or other and fixed it up in a few minutes. Then, when it was in shape, I was able to use the standard methods to finish.
Member
[QUOTE=george wilson;2519498]Someone said that "diamond stones are flat,don't let anyone tell you they aren't." Well,I'LL tell you that some of them AREN'T! At least,not flat enough to lap your block plane flat with!!They are certainly flat enough to sharpen your plane iron and chisels with.
I have a granite plate and wet or dry sandpaper that is flat enough. I saw it at Woodcraft and bought it. It's good for sharpening lots of things including jointer knives and flattening about anything.
Member
Everyone probably agrees that "level of sharpness" attainability is higher now than ever before in history right?
But, for centuries beautiful furniture was hand crafted... Why do we feel the need to chase the technology? Why do my chisels need to be sharper than my grandfathers? His work would kick my works tail in overall quality.
Member
Every diamond plate I've ever used has come with at least some particles that stick out further than the rest, and those fall out or fracture during "break in". There are some good SEM shots of the process here and here (note also the "rogue particles' in the DMT 1200 plate). What you describe is therefore normal and even desirable to a certain extent.
With that said, the DMTs (unfortunately including the DiaFlat) seem to be more prone than Atomas to shed diamonds during waterstone flattening. As I've said in another thread, I once stripped a coarse DiaFlat by using it to flatten a Sigma S-II #240. I wasn't applying all that much pressure at the time. Although I personally don't risk my Atoma #140 with stones that coarse, I know others who do and who don't report significant degradation of the stone.
Contributor
No, I can't agree we have a higher level of sharpness now.
I think several things have changed though and together they make things more confusing, especially for beginners. First we have global commerce and instead of adopting your regional solution and mastering it we have to choose between each region's tools & techniques. Next quarries are being mined out and the traditional stones are less available, leaving us with manufactured replacements to complicate our choices. Also new high tech steels that hold an edge longer have been invented and they are harder to sharpen requiring new techniques and materials to be developed to sharpen them. So we undoubtedly have more choices in sharpening, perhaps have to sharpen less, but no I can't imagine our tools are any sharper in use.
Member
We (woodworkers) are not at the leading edge or "chasing the technology". Not even close. If you want to see what that looks like then go read a straight-razor forum and learn all about 0.025 micron diamond and CBN sprays. 0.025 um is somewhere in the neighborhood of half a million grit (seriously).
Japanese natural polishing stones range up to the equivalent of #30000 or so, and well-broken-in fine Arkansas stones are well up into the thousands, so what we're doing these days isn't even exceptional by historical woodworking standards. Anything much above O(#10000) has marginal benefit for woodworking, which is why the level of target sharpness hasn't moved much in literally centuries.
The main things that have changed are speed/productivity and the fact that we can now achieve good edges on more difficult steels. Silicon Dioxide (the abrasive in natural stones) has a Knoop hardness of about 820 (~Rc 64) so anything much harder than that was a lost cause until the advent of synthetic abrasives. For comparison, the Chromium carbides in D2 come in at a Knoop hardness of ~1700.
Last edited by Patrick Chase; 01-21-2016 at 12:53 PM.
Member
Just a thought to those who can't seem to get their tools sharp: I trained many people in the museum,some in other shops too, to sharpen their tools. The Book Binders needed truly razor sharp tools for skiving leather. I noticed that many do not bear down hard enough on their stones. I do NOT mean to bear down on DIAMOND stones!! So,check out if you are really bearing down enough.
To those who are using SOFT stones,of course you cannot. I can,with my Spyderco ceramic stones. On stropping,strop progressively lighter as you go,to produce a sharper and sharper edge. Change the angle that you present the tool to the strop also. That helps wear down the microscopic "mountains" on the edges. I use a MDF piece with LV green compound. I hate the feel of it compared to a leather strop. But,it doesn't "give" and round the edge over like leather can. When I did use a leather strop,I always used it HAIR side out. Everyone else seems to use the SUEDE side out. But,I felt that the hair side offered a more compacted surface that did not round the edge of the tool. But,it was easy to make a false move and cut the hair side,hurting it. But,strops aren't hard to make.
P.S.: I keep my MDF strop where dust from the shop cannot land on it. I don't want anything but the green compound on it.
About stropping: I HATE it when I see some stupid actor in a movie stropping his knife(or honing it),holding the blade's edge VERTICAL to the stone or strop. What do those people think? I realize they aren't craftsmen,but isn't a little COMMON SENSE in order? Another thing is they invariably throw their canteens away when they are empty. Trekking across the desert. O.K.,what are they going to use to CARRY more water,should they find it?
Last edited by george wilson; 01-21-2016 at 12:58 PM.
Member
Gotcha. This makes sense to me.
Also David, great points that also make a lot of sense. Thanks.
Member
Giant LOL!
(The movie maker's poetic license I guess.)
Contributor
If that were true I wouldn't need to mess with jigs. If you look at my finished products it is, unfortunately, immediately obvious which is which. Despite decades of attempts my hand sharpened blades have about eight different bevels on them. I seem to be completely unable to hold an angle steady despite knowing perfectly well what I'm supposed to be doing.
Member
For some reason when I read this my initial mental image was of one of Jerry Seinfeld's high-pitched rants in his standup act...
Next up: Why do teenage victims-to-be make appalling decisions in horror flicks? :-)
Last edited by Patrick Chase; 01-21-2016 at 1:58 PM.
Contributor
If you ever tried shaving with a dull straight razor you would know they had to have a way of getting those sharp for our forefathers to go without facial hair.Everyone probably agrees that "level of sharpness" attainability is higher now than ever before in history right?
The "secrets" of sharpening were likely held close to home among the tradesmen of old. It was a tactical advantage in a competitive world to have an edge on your competition.
Dave Weaver mention a jasper hone at one time. I bummed a piece of jasper from my wife's rock hoard. It is very hard and can put a mirror on steel.
It is imaginable in the past young craftsmen tried every rock they could find to see what it could do to steel.
jtk
"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
- Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)
Contributor
They will just pick up one of the other canteens the people who came before them tossed.Another thing is they invariably throw their canteens away when they are empty. Trekking across the desert. O.K.,what are they going to use to CARRY more water,should they find it?
Watching the movies, one would think the deserts are littered with old, but empty, canteens.
jtk
"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
- Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote
