Why do we focus on tear-out only with smoothers

[Tyler Keniston]

So perhaps this isn't even true, but I get the sense that when we talk about taming tear out with hand planes, we are generally referring to the last finishing step, i.e. smoothing. This is where focus on super tight plane set-up and fine shavings seems to be.
But are not the previous planing steps (not across grain of course) as likely to cause tear out, and even more so if we're not taking those whispery fine shavings we often take with smoothers?

I ask because I feel like I treat every planing operation (e.g. even when jointing) as if I'm smoothing; taking fine shavings as to avoid tear out. I actually don't own a smoother, though I'm looking to change that.

If the grain is perfect, perhaps its a moot point. And if its horrendous, it'll probably be tough no matter what and again moot. I'm thinking here about the mid range hardwood with some mild reversing grain and the like. Isn't every operation other than roughing across the grain going to be treated the same? If we can't take a thick shaving, we can't. It we can, we can. It seems like every operation would need to be treated with the same slew of anti tear out measures we use for smoothing.

So what I'm wondering is: what differentiates the operations at all? I think I want to buy a smoother, but why? I already feel like I am smoothing when I use my #7. Am I using the 7 wrong?

[Mike Cherry]

Was it Klausz who used a number 7 for everything just about? David Charlesworth uses a 5 1/2 for almost all operations. There isn't a right and wrong. There's a what works for you and what works for me.

Tear at out can mean a couple things. If your talking about a spot where the grain switched back and forth and you can feel a not so smooth surface, then you can worry about that when you finish plane it. If we're talking a big ol gouge that came out then we have other problems, namely sharpness of the blade. I'm not sure what your level of experience with hand tools is, but for me, I get less and less tear out the more experienced I get. I think it's because I have sharper tools than when I started and I understand grain a bit better now.

In the Schwarz protocol of course, medium, and fine, the jointer should be taking a shaving three or four thou. Maybe a bit more. But again, if you like your number 7 and things are working for ya, don't change just cause convention says to.

[Shawn Pixley]

It really depends upon the piece of wood.

If I am flattening a panel, I am going to be taking much thicker shavings than I would with my smoother. I don't obsess with tear out as there will be many more passes with the plane before it is flat and smooth. I use jack, jointer, and smoother. Jack will be a thick shaving. Jointer will be thinner shaving and no major tear out. I don't obsess here as I leave tracks (no camber on my #7). The smoother will take out the tracks and any minor tear-out. If I approached some of these panels concerned with no tear-out ever, it would take forever taking smoother thickness shavings on twisted panel.

If I am prepping highly figured wood or one that tears out deeply (>1/16"), I'll take thinner shavings as one small mistake can lead to a lot more work.

In theory, the smoother is the last plane (or planing operation) to touch the wood, so tear-out is essential here. Thus, this is why we obsess with the smoother. The others, less so. You can do all the operations with a single plane or use different planes for the various operations. Pick a method that works for you.

[nima hadavi]

I have used a #6 for all operations.....Even though i have planes of all shapes and sizes, I still prefer my 6 to all others. It works for me, and to change what I know would take years of refining. Do what is best for you. Forget all the nonsense.

A plane is an extension of the body; use it as such, and one has the ability to create what one wishes.

[Jim Koepke]

I have used a #6 for all operations.....Even though i have planes of all shapes and sizes, I still prefer my 6 to all others. It works for me, and to change what I know would take years of refining. Do what is best for you. Forget all the nonsense.

A plane is an extension of the body; use it as such, and one has the ability to create what one wishes.

Almost forgot, Howdy Nima and welcome to the Creek.

My #6 is also used often.

Tear out can be controlled to some degree even on thicker shavings. But if I am removing a bad edge I am not as worried about an acceptable amount of tear out before getting a piece flat or smooth. That is where adjusting on the fly comes into use.

If there is an area with reversing grain, I am often able to use a fine set smoother and take one or two shavings going against the majority of the grain and clean up the trouble spot. Each board may have its own special needs. With the blade as sharp as possible and the chip breaker set a super thin shaving can help to clean up a troubled area.

jtk

[Patrick Chase]

So perhaps this isn't even true, but I get the sense that when we talk about taming tear out with hand planes, we are generally referring to the last finishing step, i.e. smoothing. This is where focus on super tight plane set-up and fine shavings seems to be.
But are not the previous planing steps (not across grain of course) as likely to cause tear out, and even more so if we're not taking those whispery fine shavings we often take with smoothers?

I ask because I feel like I treat every planing operation (e.g. even when jointing) as if I'm smoothing; taking fine shavings as to avoid tear out. I actually don't own a smoother, though I'm looking to change that.

If the grain is perfect, perhaps its a moot point. And if its horrendous, it'll probably be tough no matter what and again moot. I'm thinking here about the mid range hardwood with some mild reversing grain and the like. Isn't every operation other than roughing across the grain going to be treated the same? If we can't take a thick shaving, we can't. It we can, we can. It seems like every operation would need to be treated with the same slew of anti tear out measures we use for smoothing.

So what I'm wondering is: what differentiates the operations at all? I think I want to buy a smoother, but why? I already feel like I am smoothing when I use my #7. Am I using the 7 wrong?

A couple thoughts:

1. Deeper cuts leave more and deeper tearout

2. Getting the wood to acceptable flatness and finish in reasonable time often requires deeper cuts than you can achieve without causing tearout. Obviously if you're willing to rough a mil at a time that won't be a problem, but you won't be productive that way.

The solution that people have arrived at is the so-called "coarse, medium, fine" sequence. You first do bulk removal while taking thick cuts (roughing, "coarse"), then true the surface while taking medium cuts (jointing, "medium"), then finish the surface while taking very shallow shavings (smoothing, "fine").

The key to making this work is that each successive step must clean up any damage left by the previous one. In other words, then depth of any tearout from roughing should be no more than a couple/few jointing passes, and the depth of tearout from jointing should be no more than a couple/few smoothing passes. There should be no tearout left after smoothing.

That last bit is why a lot of people implicitly or explicitly focus on smoothing when they talk about tearout, but you'll also see a lot of people talking about using close-set cap irons etc on jointers as well, because smoothing becomes very slow if the jointer leaves overly deep tearout.

You can (and people do) use the same plane with different cut depths for all 3 purposes.

[paul cottingham]

I believe I read that Alan Peters used a no.7 pretty much exclusively. A pretty strong endorsement.

[steven c newman]

I "size" the planes used to the size of the boards being worked on. Have a few of each size, mostly set up as smoothers ( #3 to a #7), and a few that are cambered, as well. 6 hour work day pushing around #6s and #7s, gets a bit rough...As I go along, I will "down-size" a bit. maybe go from a #6c down to a #11 Junior Jack. No need to drag out a 22" long smoother, if the panel is only...12" on each side...IF the #4 or #3 will work, it will get used. If I spread the work around a bit between all the planes, it saves a bit of wear&tear on just a select few. I have been known to even fire up a block plane...or two, for the smaller stuff. About the only time I ever use a "Bevel Up" plane, anyway.

[Patrick Chase]

I "size" the planes used to the size of the boards being worked on. Have a few of each size, mostly set up as smoothers ( #3 to a #7), and a few that are cambered, as well. 6 hour work day pushing around #6s and #7s, gets a bit rough...As I go along, I will "down-size" a bit. maybe go from a #6c down to a #11 Junior Jack. No need to drag out a 22" long smoother, if the panel is only...12" on each side...IF the #4 or #3 will work, it will get used. If I spread the work around a bit between all the planes, it saves a bit of wear&tear on just a select few. I have been known to even fire up a block plane...or two, for the smaller stuff. About the only time I ever use a "Bevel Up" plane, anyway.

I realize this makes me a bit of a kook, but I like the Veritas 5-1/4W for jointing small-to-medium boards...

[Kees Heiden]

On small stuff I also often use a single #4 from the roughing stage all the way to smoothing. No fine mouth allowed of course to pull a trick like that!

A reasonably close set capiron has a cushioning effect on the amount of tearout in thick shavings. You might still get some tearing but not the heavy deep gouging. This works better with a capiron then with a steep cutting angle. Steep cutting angles are not a great idea for thick shavings anyway.

A jack plane with a serious camber doesn't allow to set the capiron close enough, naturally. Keeping the capiron out of harms way when roughing, also saves a bunch on planing resistance, you don't get tired too quickly. So, first a jack plane with as thick a shaving as you can comforatbly push to get rid of cup, bow, twist and for thicknessing. Then a tryplane with a reasonably tight set capiron to get the board really straight and to size. And finally a smoother to remove all small damage, layout lines, rough feeling spots, dents etc, just before you assemble the piece. And after assembly the smoother again to level joints, repair assembly damage etc. Or a scraper of course.

[Patrick Chase]

A jack plane with a serious camber doesn't allow to set the capiron close enough, naturally. Keeping the capiron out of harms way when roughing, also saves a bunch on planing resistance, you don't get tired too quickly. So, first a jack plane with as thick a shaving as you can comforatbly push to get rid of cup, bow, twist and for thicknessing.

IMO planing along the diagonals helps with tearout when roughing. It leaves a pretty rough surface, but that's easily fixed when jointing.

[Kees Heiden]

Sure, just don't spelch the far end!

[Pat Barry]

The thing I've learned, and have to keep in mind for glued up panels, is to take the time to not only worry about figure, color, and grain pattern matching, but make sure that all the boards (if possible) are oriented in the same way to minimize the risk of tearout. Planing left to right for example where two adjacent boards have the grain going opposite each other makes a very difficult planing task. Obviously when smoothing this issue is lessened because of the minimal cutting depth.

[Daniel Rode]

I'm concerned about tear-out at all stages. As Pat mentioned, one strategy is to orient the grain in my favor whenever possible. However, that's 3rd on the list. Alternating the bark sides is useful to help minimize cupping. Often, my chief concern is orienting them in the most attractive way. So I need other ways to deal with tear-out

Being a hybrid woodworker, my planes are generally set to take thinner shavings and with a more closely set chip breaker. The machines do the grunt work, I use planes to make things flat and straight, to smooth out machine marks and to fit and finesse things. I size the distance for the chip breaker based on the size shaving I want to take. My #5 "scrub" has the chip breaker set back at least 1/16" My #6 and #7 and around 1/32" in general with the #7 set somewhat closer. Another #5 is setup like a smoother as is my #4. Even within this, I sometimes alter the chip breaker. I'm still working to dial in exactly where the chip breaker needs to be to reduce tear-out but still cut without clogging. I think I'm on the right track in sizing the gap to match the shaving I want.

The last tools in my tear-out arsenal are scrapers. I have several card scrapers and a #80 scraper plane. Scrapers are simply indispensable. The #80 is a game changer. It's not that it take a superior shaving. It's that using a card scraper on a large area to remove deeper tear-out is painful. My fingers are on fire, my hands cramp. The #80 lets me do this easily.

I think the reason we focus on tear-out more for smoothers is that it's the final step. If previous steps created tear-out, when we go to smooth, we are trying to perfect the surface.

[Prashun Patel]

Smoothing is a function - not a plane. It is prepping the surface for finish. It's the step of removing all marks including tear out. So, yes, taming tearout is a specific PRIORITY for the smoothing step.

Smoothing isn't a plane. People like to use #4's or #3's for it, because that's how big they are and their work is. If you smooth with a #7, power to you.

You flatten, thickness, then smooth. The first two steps can be labor intensive and can require removing a lot of material. Taking whispies during this time can be inefficient. Even if you are backing off the cut and closing the mouth of your jointer, if you're doing it AFTER you've brought the piece into flat and proper thickness, then you're doing it during the smoothing phase.

Without meaning to sound glib:

If you *think* you need a #4, then you don't need one. Wait until your hands and instinct tell you that you want something lighter for that phase.

Even better, buy a Lie Nielsen #4, use it, and if you decide you don't like it, pm me, and sell it to me...cheap