White Oak vs Elm

[John Loftis]

Hi folks, a customer shipped me a small board that is supposedly from a very famous elm tree. I've never worked with elm before. To me, this board looks just like white oak, and when I began milling it, I got the characteristic 'bourbon barrel smell' of white oak. So... I'm a little suspicious.

Anybody milled a lot of elm? Does it smell like white oak? Is there an easy way to verify this is actually elm?

Thanks in advance!
John

[Prashun Patel]

Elm to me smells like feet. Oak smells like vinegar or ketchup or, when it dries, like bourbon and vanilla and moss.

Most Elm I have does not have any ray flecking on the qs. Both have prominent grain, but elm is tighter and more closed.

[Jamie Buxton]

If you look at the end grain of white oak, the medullary rays are pretty obvious. In elm, they're almost not there.

[Dick Strauss]

I can't speak to smell off hand. However, elm also has an interlocking chevron pattern across the face and end grain that should make it easy to distinguish from white oak.

[John Loftis]

I can't speak to smell off hand. However, elm also has an interlocking chevron pattern across the face and end grain that should make it easy to distinguish from white oak.

A few photos...IMG_3166.jpgIMG_3168.jpgIMG_3167.jpg

[ALAN HOLLAR]

That looks like every piece of flatsawn white oak I have ever held in my hand.

[Jason Mikits]

Absolutely, positively oak and not elm of any kind!!

[John K Jordan]

Elm has distinctive wavy bands of small latewood pores in cross section. Slice a small section with a razor blade and look at with a low power lens (10x is perfect)

ELM:
wood-elm.jpg

The rays on oak are wide and distinctive on cross section, very long and distinctive on longitudinal radial and tangential sections. The large pores in white oak are filled with easily seen tyloses, making them look kind of sparkly. You can find end grain photos on the Wood Database.

JKJ

[John Loftis]

Elm has distinctive wavy bands of small latewood pores in cross section. Slice a small section with a razor blade and look at with a low power lens (10x is perfect)

ELM:
wood-elm.jpg

The rays on oak are wide and distinctive on cross section, very long and distinctive on longitudinal radial and tangential sections. The large pores in white oak are filled with easily seen tyloses, making them look kind of sparkly. You can find end grain photos on the Wood Database.

JKJ

John, did you see the pictures of the end grain I attached previously? What do you think?

[Cody Colston]

The picture you posted is of flat-sawn oak...some species of white oak. If it came from North Texas, it's probably Post Oak. Whomever told you it was elm was mistaken.

[Prashun Patel]

Sure it's not red oak?
I thought the pin holes in the end grain are a clue that it's red.

[John Loftis]

It came from Washington D.C. This will be a delicate conversation...

[John K Jordan]

I think it's not elm. Besides, most elm stinks when worked.

Yes, I saw your cross sections. Perhaps it is Chestnut Oak, White Oak, Black Oak or some other oak:

chestnut-oak-endgrain-zoom-200x200.jpg white-oak-endgrain-zoom-200x200.jpg black-oak-endgrain-zoom-200x200.jpg

For better results, slice some end grain with a razor blade. I buy single-edged razor blades for this. If the wood is dry and very hard you can soak or boil it in water to make it softer.

One clue might be where the tree was. Perhaps the newspaper or courthouse in the area has information on the history of the tree which might have information. Of course, the trail from the actual tree to your hands could be convoluted and confused. Someone could have picked up the wrong board(s) at some point, took advantage of some unsuspecting person to make some money, or simply made a mistake.

You can send a tiny sample to the government (Forest Products Laboratory) and they will do a free ID if you are a US citizen. However, if it is one of the oaks they will answer "oak", not the exact species. You can distinguish between the red and white oaks with a sodium nitrate solution.

JKJ

[peter gagliardi]

That is White Oak.

[John K Jordan]

That is White Oak.

There are things to look for and a simple, definitive chemical test:
http://www.wood-database.com/wood-ar...rom-white-oak/

JKJ