Joinery for Screen Door built by a newbie

[Todd Mason-Darnell]

I am going to be making 3 screen doors for our house. We are in Central Texas and this doors are relatively unprotected (no porch overhang). The last few sets of doors, purchased from the big box stores, have all rotted at the joints after 3-4 years. No matter what I did (multiple coats of paint, caulk in the joints, etc) water would work into those joints and eat up the soft pine.

This time, I am going to try making my own doors either out of Cypress or Cedar (either 4/4 or 5/4 material).

I am wondering about what I should do for joinery?

Pocket holes is the obvious choice, but I was thinking of not painting the doors (sealing only) and the pocket holes would stick out--also not sure how to manufacture plugs out of cedar or cypress.

I am relatively new at fine woodworking, but have done a variety of construction projects and built some shop cabinets. I am willing to learn new skills (and/or buy new tools ), but I am still on the steep side of the learning curve. Any suggestions would be appreciated.

Thanks

[Sam Murdoch]

Pocket hole screws IN MY MIND don't belong on doors or fine furniture (unless completely hidden - even then... ).

When I build screen/storm doors I have used 1/2 lap joinery to join the rails and stiles (early versions) and now defer to exterior grade Domino loose tenons. Of course you can make these with authentic mortise and tenon construction if you are so inclined and have the tools and experience. The dominos are easy, very effective, accurate and result in a solid construction. Yeah you need to own or borrow or rent a Festool Domino. There's your new tool and what a great tool it is.

Another treatment is to attach the stiles to the rails with through lags - similar to Timber Locks. That's a quick and dirty technique that will make for a solid easy to build door.

IN ALL CASES mentioned above - I use epoxy as my glue. I do not depend solely on the joinery. Always with exterior doors I also use multiple thin coats of epoxy to saturate the top and bottom of the stiles before I apply finish. This prevents moisture migration for the life of the door - add years.

Here are just a few examples of screen/storm doors I have built to give my opinion some credibility. These doors have been in service, summer and winter, for at least 6 years and still look and operate great. Stock on these and my typical screen/storm doors is 1-1/8" thick - no less than 1-1/16".

P5221342 copy.jpg P5221349 copy.jpg

[Gene Davis]

A domino will run you $1500 or more by the time you buy the tool, the domino collection, the vacuum, and an accessory or two. Big investment unless you have a lot planned for it down the road.

Screws and plugs and epoxy will be far less costly. Buy a long drill bit for placing pilot holes so the screws go nicely into the center of the rails. A box of 6 inch Timberloks will run you less than $40.

I built screened doors using western red cedar, selecting for quartersawn if possible. Since I have the equipment, I did mortise and tenon joints and used epoxy.

[roger wiegand]

I've never found anything else to be as good as a mortise and tenon joint for maximizing strength, especially in smaller members you might find in a mostly-screen door. I suppose that could be done with a loose tenon (aka Domino), but I'm set up to cut the old fashioned kind pretty quickly and easily, so haven't made that investment. I really don't think pocket screws would resist the racking forces on a door, I'd bet the joints would open up in no time. -- especially if you have kids hanging on the doors.

I've just done my first project with a clear epoxy sealer, unfortunately it will be a decade or so before I can tell you how it worked. I figure it works for boats, so it should be OK for other outdoor projects. Old growth cypress is a great outdoor wood, much of what is available now (like the redwood from small trees) is grown so quickly it doesn't have time to build up the rot-resisting compounds and won't last the same way.

[Jerry Miner]

If you build these doors with pocket screws, I think you're looking at another 3-4 year door, not a 10-15 year door. I wouldn't use lags or Timberloks either--- they would depend on a screw-into-end-grain connection, which will fail with time (and repeated humidity swings).

These methods are pretty reliable:

• Mortise and tenon (the truly tried-and true approach)
• Half-lap (a good choice and easier to produce for a novice with limited tools)
• Loose tenon (almost as good as traditional M&T--possibly easier to produce---certainly easier if you have access to a Domino)
• Dowels (the choice of most commercial door makers--probably including the maker of your failed doors. Not as good as the three above, IMHO. I've replaced and repaired a zillion dowelled doors)

Soaking the ends in low-viscosity epoxy is a good idea to prolong the life of the door. I'm with Sam, thicker is better, 1 1/16" minimum.

[Lee Schierer]

I built a screen door out of pine for our family room to outside deck door way. It served that purpose for 5-6 years before we remodeled. It then became the door into our blue berry patch which gets covered with bird netting during blue berry season. The door has seen that duty for at least 6 years staying outside completely exposed to the weather for 2-3 months. The joints were all M & T and the stock is all 3/4" thick. It was glued together with ordinary yellow wood working glue. Not one joint has failed.

[Gene Davis]

Todd, our OP, ought to chime in here and tell us what he is prepared to do, tool-wise.

The great Paul Sellers, hand tool guy extraordinaire, would have the joints cut pronto, all M & T, using a couple handsaws and two chisels, one for mortising, the other for paring. Watch his YouTube video here.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aBodzmUGtdw

But to do it, one ought to have the right saw or saws, and the right chisels, and for the chisels, the means to get them sharp. Really sharp.

The power-tool way means either a good plunge router, and the fixture needed for mortising, or a dedicated mortising press. Tenons are cut with a tablesaw setup and a dado stack.

Hey, but what do I know? I'm still partial to three or four 6 inch Timberlok screws. I know they are into end grain, but you're going to get three full inches of coarse thread engagement.

Consider making the doors with the screws, first ripping a 3/4" piece off the outboard edge of each stile, to be glued back on with Titebond III after you have screwed the assembly together. The stile edge re-glue covers up all your screw work, which you counterbored.

[Mike Wilkins]

Mortise and tenon will give you years of sturdy service. Doors have a lot of stresses applied to them and you need the strongest joint possible.
The Domino system should work well; I don't have one but the system sure looks nice.
You might go to your nearest book store and get the latest copy of FineHomebuilding magazine. There is an article about a father/son team that builds garden gates, and their construction methods are heavy duty and built to last.

[Todd Mason-Darnell]

I appreciate all of the ideas--I was wondering about M&T joints, but I am not sure a new Domino is in the budget--especially as I am lusting over a new table saw to replace the low, low, low end contractor saw that I have now.

I just built a version of Norm's router table. I have a PC 690 in it and just bought (with the trade in discount at Woodcraft) a 2 1/4 HP plunge router, so I am thinking that I might try to massacre some wood making M & T joints.

[Gene Davis]

OK then. Thanks for informing us about your equipment.

Your plunge router will make good mortises, but unless you want to round over those tenons, you'll need the right chisels to square the ends. A simple jig or centering baseplate will work better than the new table for doing the work.

Your tablesaw will get you close on the tenons, but consider buying a good shoulder rebate plane for trimming. I have a pair of rebate planes, the little Stanley 90, and the medium sized Lee Valley Veritas. The perfect pair for getting those tenons to seat perfectly.

So go out to the BORG and get some cheap pine 2x4s and start practicing. Do not cut that cedar or cypress until you have executed some really good joints in practice stock.

[Robert Engel]

Structurally or aesthetically pocket holes are not a good choice in this case. IMHO, the only screws in a full size entry door should be in the hinges.

There is a reason why mortise/tenon joints are still the standard joint in door construction after a few hundred years .

This can be done totally with hand tools, just a hand saw and a good sharp chisel with a paring guide block. I would do a complete through tenon and would definitely draw bore and pin them. This way you won't be relying totally on glue to hold your door together. It will never come apart.

Obviously, exterior grade, waterproof glue (probably the main reason your other doors fell apart). TBIII, but I would go with epoxy.

[Gene Davis]

Here is a pretty good video of a guy doing a mortise using a router sized like yours, and an edge guide. Solid carbide upcut bit used.

Good advice all around, first on going from both sides to get centered, and in cutting first mortise, then tenon after. I like Mr Wood Man from Austin, TX.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I0YjZ0MkYtw

[lowell holmes]

I suggest you try some hand chopped mortises. If you haven't learned to do those, it is not that difficult. If you need to, a doweling jig would let you excavate the mortise. Chopping with a 1/4" chisel is not at all difficult either.

[Brett Church]

Just down the road from me is Old Goats. If you punch screendoors.com into your browser you are looking at Old Goats doors. I've been to their shop a couple of times to learn a few things about doors. BTW, it's pretty amazing what comes out of a very small shop, I'm talking less than 500 sq ft!

Here's their methods:
1: The wood has to be super stable. They buy all their blanks from a mill in Oregon and then store them for several months in a rack in their shop. We pulled several pieces out of the rack and they are perfect; no warp, cupping, or twist. The recommend Cedar for outside, but they will make it out of anything you want.

2: All their joints are M&T except small pieces, then they use a small Domino. Your bench has to be perfectly flat. They build all their doors on two rectangular (perfect) beams/boards (maybe 4x4x36") that sit perpendicular to the long axis of the bench. They are really fussy about the rails; if there is the slightest bow or if the grain favors a bow then they lay out the door so that the middle of the of the door will touch first when closing, not the edges. This way a closed door stays plumb and true.

3: They use only Gorilla Glue. He showed me a screw-up that was Gorilla Glue and Domino's that they left leaning against a building outside, full sun and weather exposure, run off from the roof, etc (Montana). It was several years old and still perfect, except for the weathering since it had no finish on it! They use really basic clamps and not much pressure. If your finger was between the clamp and door it probably wouldn't hurt much, if at all (I think about this all the time when I am torquing the crap out of my Bessey Revo handles!)

Bear in mind that these guys are a one trick pony. They don't even mill their own wood. On the other hand they are a commercial screen door company shipping doors all over the country. Their methods must work or else they would go out of business. They also enjoy a very good reputation among the local custom home builders.

Good luck.

[Sam Murdoch]

Brett - I'd be really interested in what they use for hardware - Brand name(s) for locksets and hinges. This has been the most aggravating aspect of building these relatively thin doors. Good hinges are more abundant but locksets that are worth putting on a custom door have been impossible for me to find. Everything is a compromise - Deltana is sadly the "best" I have found.