Question about finishing wood: hand planing vs sanding

[Prashun Patel]

Alan, a French polish is a film finish. These guys are taking about oil/varnish and oil finishes that have no build.

Chris and Patrick, have you wet sanded finishes and use fine abrasives to burnish your surfaces? In theory there is a difference between the abraded and cut surface, but in practice I cannot tell the difference and I know what to look for. There is just a point where I believe your naked eye cannot tell a difference.

And I am talking about depth, clarity, chatoyance, whatever you want to call it.

There is a difference between sanding and sanding, burnishing, polishing. The application of the finish is as much a science and art as is the surface prep.

There are multiple ways to get to the perfect inthewood finish.

Tell you what, pm me your address and I will send you a sample with each side prepped differently and will challenge any takers to spot the difference with naked eye. Just as you will trust me not to cheat I will trust you to vote by naked eye before using a loupe.

[Brian Holcombe]

Hardness of the wood makes a difference as well. Prashun, give it a try with a softwood as well, something like pine, fir, or cypress.

[Patrick Chase]

And yet, to play Devil's advocate, most woodworkers would agree that the finest, most glass-like finish possible comes from french polishing.

What is the french polish method if not abrasion? (pumice) It makes you think ....

gloss/glass != depth.

French polishing goes beyond abrasion in that you actually push the abraded debris into the pores to level the surface. It's basically a high-class ancestor of "6 coats of PU", and is not at all what I was referring to when I said that the difference is most visible in "an in-the-wood finish".

Derek's photo earlier in this thread is a good example, and it shouldn't be hard to imagine what that would look like with a couple coats of oil.

[Marty Schlosser]

Tom, it appears I've had different experience than you regarding sandpaper's ability to produce very smooth surfaces in preparation for finishing. Here's my thoughts: 1) a well sharpened and properly set up smoothing plane will get the surface ready for finishing in far less time and with much less effort than sanding through the various grits; and, 2) the sandpaper available on today's marketplace, by such companies as Mirka, has to be used to be appreciated as far as a finish is concerned. Their Abralon (http://www.mirka.com/en-CA/ca/product/#/8A0/ABRALON) goes as fine as P4000.

At a symposium I'd organized two years ago which focussed solely on finishing, I had Jacques Breau (http://endgrain.ca/) prepare a piece of cherry for finishing, using his handplane. A few swipes and voila, it was done. Kinda daunting the level of experience he has! Then, I took a piece of cherry from the other end of the same board and "crawled through" the various grits with my 6" Metabo random orbit sander, from 80 all the way to P4,000. When I got to P1,000, I had someone from the front row of the audience check the surface of the two boards to see which was the smoothest. Of course he selected Jacques' board. So I continued and again at P2,000, P3,000 and finally, P4,000 did the same thing. In the end, the P4,000 was judget the smoothest of the two. But what Jacques had done in less than 30 seconds, I had taken 10 minutes to accomplish.

Can most woodworkers achieve that same level of surface using only a smoothie? Perhaps not, but they can get the piece to a good enough level where the final two or so grits of sandpaper work can finish it off.

My two bits.

No sandpaper can match the smoothness of a super sharp smoothing plane. For some finishes, you have to rough it up a little with sandpaper so it can take the finish.

[Phil Mueller]

Hi Prashun,
Could you send me multiple pieces to the exact specs of an end table I have in mind...oh, and a little glue?

[Warren Mickley]

I beg to differ.

i cannot tell a difference between a properly sanded surface and a properly planed one.

I stopped sanding in 1978. I could see the difference. I am not familiar with the term "properly planed" surface. I am suspicious that you have a poorly planed surface or that you are abrading the surface after planing.

[glenn bradley]

Fine Woodworking Magazine did a piece on this a while back. Although the surface prep changed the color of the material (cherry and mahogany) when each finish was applied (BLO, shellac and Watco) in the end they stated that one could not tell how the material had been prepared.

I notice a lot of folks show a sanded versus planed or scraped surface in pictures without vacuuming or blowing out the pores of the sanded sample. This certainly gives a skewed visual example.

A planed surface is like glass right off the blade where sanding requires stepping through the grits (just like sharpening) in order to achieve a similar result. Lets not forget all the other tools we use to prep surfaces either. It is good that similar results can be achieved since there are certainly areas where you cannot plane and get the result I am after.

For flat areas, edges and convex curves I reach for a hand plane, scraper or a shave. For intricate or detail areas I reach for chisels, gouges, files or abrasives. Unless you're making lots of things with nothing but flat surfaces you will want a variety of surface prep tools.

[Warren Mickley]

If you read the Fine Woodworking article carefully, with each finish he put on just a light coat finish as a "sealer" and then sanded the surface. So all of the surfaces were sanded and it is no wonder that they all looked the same. When I criticised the method on another forum, one of the author's acquaintances wrote in that I should not be so hard on him because he was a young guy without much experience.

[Robert Engel]

Having read the responses... My thought are that the look and feel you get with both is quite different and therefore you're desired end result is what will drive you're methods. A modern minimalist project probably won't lend itself well to leaving tool marks in the finished product whereas a reproduction shaker project will more than lend itself well to leaving tool marks visible. YMMV

I think if doing reproduction furniture this would be the biggest factor keeping in mind an exquisitely tuned, flat iron plane won't work if going for the "old masters" effect.

I find as my plane skills improve, I use less and less sandpaper. IMO you can tell the diff but it depends on the wood and going to 400 grit.

[Prashun Patel]

Warren-
I say this with due respect; I wouldn't normally come out of my corner with respect to your experience or advice.

By properly planed, I mean with a sharp blade and a surface with no tear out or track marks or chatter or any other imperfections that the skilled may take for granted.

By properly sanded, I mean sanded up to 600 or even 1000 grit, taking care at each step to inspect and remove swirls by hand sanding. Then vaccuming the dust off.

While I sometimes do wetsand the finish, I'm talking here about strictly stopping any abrasion or cutting after 'proper prep' and then only applying the finish with a soft rag, wiping off to achieve no build.

Look, at the end of the day, I cannot argue with Warren; his experience trumps mine a couple lifetimes over. So, to all internet readers, take my one data point with a tablespoon of salt. All I am saying - as I say often on the Finishing Forum - is test it for yourself and make your determination. You may find - as I have - that there is no (let's call it) PRACTICAL difference in perception.

Warren, can I send you test, though?

I take Brian H's point about hard vs soft woods. I'm talking about the hardwoods I've tested; I can't vouch for cypress or pine.

For my part, I too despise sanding at lower grits. I think it is inefficient and leaves an uneven surface (which DEFINITELY affects finish quality). A planed or shaved surface on curves at the low grits results in flat and fair surfaces. That greatly affects the look and feel. But I am not yet at the ability to smooth plane large surfaces to perfection. For that, I still often rely on 220-1000 grit. It goes fast and is easier than hoping each stroke of my plane (unlike Brian or Warren) doesn't betray me with tear out.

There have been times when I've planed a top and started finishing it, and then found minor tearout, and then sanded JUST that spot, and then vaccuumed, and then spot refinished, feathering out, and I cannot tell the difference.

[Dan T Jones]

May a complete newbie to this idea of not using sand paper ask something? First of all I would look at sanding at a lower risk approach than a steel edge to the finishing process.

My question is, are you all saying that you would plane a table top or drawer face and not sand? Don't you get some plane marks on the surface - lines where the blade edge dragged a little or something like that??

To get the entire surface smooth and without defect is hard for me to imagine but I must say I like the idea if it is possible.

Dan

[William Adams]

The card scraper is for that final effacing of the slightest of plane tracks.

FWIW, I'd liefer sharpen a plane or a scraper than pay for and use sandpaper.

[Prashun Patel]

Dan-
It's possible to get a flawless finish right off the plane. It takes some practice, but it's possible.

[Warren Mickley]

Sharpening is an art, planing is an art, staining and finishing are arts. Probably sanding is an art also. This not a matter of meeting some standard. When we practice these arts over a long time, we make subtle changes in technique that affect the outcome. And the judging of a finished surface is an art also.

We just don't pick a man off the street and ask him to judge two wines. And we just don't read directions for growing grapes and making wine and then suggest we can produce a standard wine.

If somebody likes the sanded look better, fine. There are a lot of other things, stock selection, proportion, color and color variation, mouldings, and more, that contribute to a fine look.

[Jerry Olexa]

If your plane is tuned and properly sharpened, generally it will be equal or better than a sanded finish IMHO...