Wicked to look at, but I will stick to my vintage Stanley's...Originally Posted by Hilton Ralphs
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Wicked to look at, but I will stick to my vintage Stanley's...
Contributor
It makes my hands hurt just looking at it. Hit a knot with it, and that scrawny knob will break.
Member
I'm failing to see WHY their 6" rule is "Unlike any other on the market". Looks just like a PEC rule. Is it the 1/16" grads + the 1/32" grads? The hard chrome is pretty standard also.
Contributor
No other 6" ruler says "Bridge City Toolworks, Portland, Oregon" on it. By default, their statement is accurate. I could say my Jeep Liberty is "unlike any other on the market" because no other Jeep Liberty has the same combination of sawdust, beach sand, and rust spots as mine.
Member
Since your post is in response to mine, I'd like to point out that the citation is taken from Bridge City's Website and not from my post.
"Unlike any other on the market" seems to be no more than bog-standard copywriting these days. Although I have, regularly use, and happily recommend their 6" rule, I have not compared it to others nor done any kind of market round-up of the genre. The rule is accurate and precise, easy to read, provides a quick ¾" parallel, and has a handy 1/32's scale on the short ends that I often use for setting marking gauges.
Member
Wow. Tough crowd tonight. I applaud the makers and their effort. They have carved out a niche market and for all intensive purposes are succeeding. It shows an exceptional level of skill in manufacture, ingenuity and design - no one can question that. I would suspect you could hardly find a blemish on it. And thank, what ever you believe in, that you live in a part of the world where it's possible to at least be exposed to such freedoms. I would wonder if the plane is all that far off if you compared the ratio of wages to cost as to whether the plane is out of skew with what a Norris (or some other ground breaking plane was) cost 150 or 200 years ago...
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At least in my case the reason I'm being harsh isn't because it costs so much - it's because it's obviously impractical.
Holtey planes cost double what the BC one does, and I would never pay that much for a simple fixture that holds a chisel at a fixed angle and adjustable projection, but they're also VERY respectable and usable planes. I don't think you can say that about the BC with its funky ergonomics, and that makes it purely a status symbol.
Member
Here in this forum, I think the apposite question is: What market?
A market for tools?
Or a market for collectibles?
Those markets barely overlap.
The success of a tool is that is adopted by tool-users and/or copied by other tool-makers. I don't see this happening to the Bridge City items such as the SE Dual-Angle Smoother.
The success of a collectible is that it sells well. Note that the plane in question is being produced as a limited edition (a concept taken from fine-art printing, afaik). I do see the limited-edition SE Dual-Angle Smoother selling out its manufacturing run of 50 units:
Only 50 of these exquisitely crafted tools wil be made and have a few units remaining. {sic.}
Contributor
Not to take this too OT, but what do you think of those PEC squares? Seem like a good value compared to Starrett, which I swear by.
Member
My metric for success is the accounting one - the business is an on going concern
They've been around a long time and plan to continue for a long time so they are a success. Maybe they don't make a lot of money and their market is very narrow, but then again I've never met a well paid furniture maker that makes furniture for all aspects (no one makes furniture for the cheap ikea shopper. You know the one, the shopper that ask why your furniture is more expensive than ikeas) of the market - ever. Met plenty of happy and content woodworkers but not because of the pay.
Last edited by Brian Ashton; 05-07-2016 at 11:58 PM.
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Member
Maybe, but so what. Years ago I got to make a carved cup that would never ever be used for anything, it would only ever sit in a glass cabinet and the customer paid hundreds for it... They wanted it and they could afford it. Again I'm glad that I live in a part of the world where that's a choice.
And to be honest, who's going to pay $7000 for a Hotley and used it in any practical manner. The best you could expect is they take one shaving off a pine board, take a picture to prove it, and then stick it in the show case, never to come out again. People buy Bugatti Vayrons but they don't drive down to the supermarket in them.
I'm one of those who embraces class society. How else am I going to get to make ridiculously opulent crap that has no practical value, unless there are those that have obscene amounts of cash to throw about.
Last edited by Brian Ashton; 05-08-2016 at 12:13 AM.
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Contributor
Patrick, I think that the BCT and Holtey are two different markets - although not to say that you cannot have those that like both. In my opinion, BCT build original designs, and they are aimed at the art-as-tools market. I think some of their designs are fabulous. But I do not take many as serious tools-first .... although, having written that, I must qualify that some are splendid tools. My one and only BCT tool is a 2x2 saddle square. That's it on the left alongside a dovetail market I built ...
You will find unused BCT tools on eBay. There are many that collect them - again, as art, and not to use. I view John Economaki as a brilliant and inventive designer. If you and others do not share his ideas, then that simply reflects "art lies in the eye of the beholder". Agree or disagree, the man puts it out there.
Karl Holtey is brilliant as well, but in a different way. He finally moved away from reproducing Norris designs, which nevertheless came with his improvements to the mechanics, to produce his own designs. And they are not only excellent, but taken to the highest level in construction. I think that he will always be remembered for his utmost precision, however, and not for his design work. As a contrast, Konrad Sauer will be recalled for his lines and flow.
Regards from Perth
Derek
Member
One thing is for certain. If BCT doesn't continue after the founder hangs it up, those tools will be worth a fortune. In 200 years they will only be found in the most exclusive collections or museums... He will be remembered that's for sure
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You would be surprised at some of the things people do with Buggati Veyrons.
Full disclosure: Insurance fraud.
Member
To be honest I prefer the aesthetics of your dovetailed dovetail marker to those of the BCT saddle. More thoughts on that below...
I have a couple thoughts:
1. I tend to evaluate tools on the basis of their usefulness as such rather than their aesthetics. That's probably why I have a soft spot for unattractive-but-efficient designs like the classic Veritas BD "East German Swimmer special" plane. It also means that I'm fundamentally unreceptive to "art that imitates tools" if it isn't useful as a tool, which I think validates your point about this discussion being mostly a matter of differing aesthetics.
2. This is a woodworking forum, so I don't think it's unreasonable to evaluate tools based on their functionality.
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