Old dust, health and motivation

[Skip Helms]

Thanks Robert,

My biggest concern is the ambient dust I've created over the years. It sits on the shelves and joists and fluorescent lights like crows flocked over a clean car until it flies up my nose. There is no way I could ever reach everything with a vacuum but forcing it into the air and sucking it out with a big fan might work. I just don't want to under-spec the fan and just have the dust swirl around and land somewhere else. sh

[Jim Dwight]

I scanned the other posts and did not see this so I will mention my pet peeve. I ran a little 1 hp Delta DC in my old shop first with the bags it came with, then with "shaker felt" bags and finally with a cartridge filter. It was OK with getting the large dust particles from most of my machines but until I went to the cartridge filter I think it just blew the fine dust up where I could breathe it. Even with the cartridge filter, I had to clean it and when I did, it put some of the fine dust back in the shop.

I won't use a shop vacuum or DC without at least a "quasi" HEPA filter. For shop vacuums the less expensive filters say they are made using HEPA rated fabric, that is what I am calling a quasi HEPA filter. If you do not do this, I think it turns into the situation you describe. Fine dust all over. In my case, it was there when we moved out. I cleaned up as best I could but as long as the shop was full of my tools, I could not clean it effectively.

I would not try and blow the dust out. I don't think you can create a large enough opening to get the dust out even with a fan. I am concerned you will just move it around. You will get some of it, however. But whatever you do, please get good filtration. Trapping the dust at the source and disposing of it is the only long term solution. Cleaning it up after your vacuum spread it around is going to be frustrating and much less effective.

With respect to health effects, you might want to look for information on dust levels in outside air and other environments. They are pretty dusty. Our bodies are designed to deal with it. I think we need to do what we can to keep the level down - particularly of the fine stuff - but unless we have allergies or other health effects, it probably isn't harming us. In my shop, I use my shop vac/cyclone/quasi HEPA on every tool I can and I try to use the others outside. I also open the garage door on one end and the passage door on the other end when I am creating dust. I've been working on he house much more than making sawdust in the shop but so far so good.

[Skip Helms]

Thanks Jim,

I do a fair-to-good job of collecting what I make. My problem is what's already there. The basement isn't a rectangular box. There is storage. There are places I can't reach. There are places I really don't want to crawl. And even a good shop-vac needs to be within inches of the material to pull it out of porous surfaces.

Pretend it's an attic rather than a shop. The Antiques Roadshow just said your dad's Ty Cobb card is worth more than your house. You go up to his attic and it has a layer of dust on every surface. You find the card and hire a cleaning crew to make it spotless. Or, you don't find the card and decide to clean the attic yourself.

That's how I see my situation. If I can remove all of the air in the space ruthlessly, any dust I agitate into the flow will blow outside. Then I can assess what didn't rise. Most of it will come up pretty easily. There will still be some crawling on the stem-wall that goes deep under one of the rooms. With a good respirator (which I have), a cheap blower (which I'll get) and a well-positioned exhaust fan it will still take a couple days. The furnace is off now and the outside temperature is fine so spring is the time.

Still looking for ideas on herbal lung cleaners.

Thanks and cheers, sh

[Ole Anderson]

The only solution is a good quality full face respirator. Dust masks are no good. And you need to wear it all the while your in the shop.

What makes you say that? I agree that a full face $150 N100 respirator is marginally better than a vented fuzzy $3 n95 3M over-the-mouth-and-nose type, but IMHO is an unwarranted major encumbrance for shop work unless maybe you already have a major respiratory condition or are working with irrative (is that a word?) woods. I totally agree that cheap paper masks not stamped n95 are useless. I only wear mine while cleaning the shop, emptying the dust bin or sanding. Otherwise I run my DC and my ambient filter. And if I am just doing assembly, no need to power on either. Sorry, but I see this response as a typical over reaction to a situation that is often not even a problem.

Ask the guys with a Dylos particle detector under what conditions you need to wear a respirator and when the shop air is actually cleaner than outside air.

[Peter Aeschliman]

Thanks

Still looking for ideas on herbal lung cleaners.

Hi Skip... I don't think such a thing exists. As we have said, certain types of dust won't leave your lungs after it's there.

I recommend you seek professional clarification. Talk to a pulmonologist of you are having trouble with your lungs.

[Skip Helms]

Thanks Peter, The lungs are fine. I'd like to keep them that way for me and everyone who likes to make things.

I keep thinking there might be some easy preventative or restorative habit (like flossing for teeth) that gets foreign objects out of lung tissue. I'm often the only person on earth who doesn't know something so I ask.

For example; my wife's body chemistry can't expel heavy metals -- particularly aluminum. Twice a year she does a natural chelation cleanse with lentils (as a binder) and cilantro (extracter). She feels lousy for a couple days but it grabs the metals and flushes them out of her system. Tests confirm it works.

If spicy lentil soup can purge lead, maybe there's something that flushes pine. Thirty years ago I read that woodworkers had off-the-chart high levels of lung and naso/pharanx cancers. I don't recall if that included smokers. Dust collection, masks and awareness have probably cut that down but I'd like to not be in the last generation before the wonder-drug is discovered

As for the fan, I'd still like to know what kind of air flow I need to remove the dust I'm blasting with the leaf-blower. The Woodwhisperer video recommended above has a 5,200CFM enclosed exhaust system. That's a big, dedicated unit but if that's what it takes, so be it. I may only have to do this once. A rented carpet-dryer fan and a weekend of drudgery might get what's there now and I pay more attention to new dust at the source.

This is where the science guys can jump in and say I need at least a CFM for every 7.4 cubic feet of space (hint). sh

[Robert Engel]

What makes you say that? I agree that a full face $150 N100 respirator is marginally better than a vented fuzzy $3 n95 3M over-the-mouth-and-nose type, but IMHO is an unwarranted major encumbrance for shop work unless maybe you already have a major respiratory condition or are working with irrative (is that a word?) woods. I totally agree that cheap paper masks not stamped n95 are useless. I only wear mine while cleaning the shop, emptying the dust bin or sanding. Otherwise I run my DC and my ambient filter. And if I am just doing assembly, no need to power on either. Sorry, but I see this response as a typical over reaction to a situation that is often not even a problem.

Ask the guys with a Dylos particle detector under what conditions you need to wear a respirator and when the shop air is actually cleaner than outside air.

Not marginally better - way better. It is good that you wear one and are aware of the issues when the dust goes flying around.

My question to you is if you're going to wear one, why not use a good one? The dust masks are better than nothing but they do not filter fine particles such as with MDF there is plenty of techical data to back this up.

BTW, $35 will get you a good face respirator but even it was $100 that won't matter if you get COPD, right?
Its one of those things like smoking you may get away with it, but if you don't, its too late.

Its not overkill. I know a guy who worked in a cab shop for >20 yrs cutting MDF with no protection. He's on oxygen now and the doctors say his COPD is directly linked to MDF dust.

Now with MDF and the Chinese plywood and urethane (or who knows what) glues, we have to be careful with them, too. Some people recommend a noxious gas filter in addition to a particulate.

[Ole Anderson]

Not marginally better - way better. It is good that you wear one and are aware of the issues when the dust goes flying around.

My question to you is if you're going to wear one, why not use a good one? The dust masks are better than nothing but they do not filter fine particles such as with MDF there is plenty of techical data to back this up.

BTW, $35 will get you a good face respirator but even it was $100 that won't matter if you get COPD, right?
Its one of those things like smoking you may get away with it, but if you don't, its too late.

Its not overkill. I know a guy who worked in a cab shop for >20 yrs cutting MDF with no protection. He's on oxygen now and the doctors say his COPD is directly linked to MDF dust.

Now with MDF and the Chinese plywood and urethane (or who knows what) glues, we have to be careful with them, too. Some people recommend a noxious gas filter in addition to a particulate.

I would be interested in seeing the data showing an n95 rated particulate filter is not effective in removing MDF particles. Why not wear a full face filter (full face meaning covering the eyes also)? Way too cumbersome compared to an n95 respirator. I have no doubt a lifetime of breathing mdf dust without any protection will mess up your lungs. That is why we have these discussions related to shop dust.

[Jim Dwight]

Skip,

I would calculate the cubic feet of space in your shop/basement. It is just floor area times height. Now if you divide that amount by the cubic feet per minute that the fan you are considering can move, you will know how many minutes it will take to move all the air out of the shop once. The heavier dust may fall to the floor before going out but the dangerous light stuff should move out. You can also blow the floor to move the heavier stuff that direction. I would want to try and exhaust the air in 15 minutes or less. My reason is I think you have to keep the dust moving. If a reasonably size/price fan can do it in 5 minutes that would be significantly better. But those are gut feel kind of figures. There is certainly room for other opinions.

Jim

[Skip Helms]

Figure roughly 20k cubic feet. A 3.2k CFM fan clears the space in 6-7 minutes. That also seems to be the sweet spot for 18 and 20" exhaust fans price-wise. They can also run at 120v AC which means I can use the outlets next to the door.

I'm not looking for perfect but don't want to scrimp and be sorry. Northern Tool carries a wide selection of fans in that capacity with several configurations that could be adapted to the opening.

Thanks again to all, Skip

[Robert Engel]

I would be interested in seeing the data showing an n95 rated particulate filter is not effective in removing MDF particles. Why not wear a full face filter (full face meaning covering the eyes also)? Way too cumbersome compared to an n95 respirator. I have no doubt a lifetime of breathing mdf dust without any protection will mess up your lungs. That is why we have these discussions related to shop dust.

Its not the filtering ability the problem with dust masks is fitting tight against face. Definitely not recommended for people with beards.

[Ole Anderson]

Its not the filtering ability the problem with dust masks is fitting tight against face. Definitely not recommended for people with beards.

Facial hair (I have some) is going to impede the fit of any mask, whether it is a cheap 3M n95 fuzzy mask or one with a silicone seal. I used one of their $30 automotive paint respirator masks while spraying latex in a basement (with as much cross ventilation as I could get) and could still taste the paint two days later.

Just to clarify, when you say full face mask, are you speaking of the ones with that also cover your eyes? Or one like this:

[Daniel O'Neill]

TBH Skip even if your fan is undersized a little bit you can just repeat the process a few times. Usually I blow out my garage a couple of times before it gets really good & clean. The mask and fan approach will work but you have to be careful that you don't allow more dust to go into your furnace and then blow around the house later when you turn the furnace on. I didn't catch if the furnace was enclosed in on of those rooms you mentioned. While the fan/leaf blower doesn't solve any problems long term I think it does help air quality overall. I would also second the comment about ambient air filters.

[Skip Helms]

I keep coming back to this model. This is a Canarm but Triangle makes one much like it. 20" fan with a housing that goes about 25" square by 6" deep for the box. This one moves 3400 CFM. One speed. I figure I can fir-out the 34" door with 2X's and trim. The only non-code part would be using a flexible cord rather than hard-wiring it to a box. At 4 amps 120v that doesn't particularly bother me.

One engineering feat I don't think anyone here can help me with is that both the likely air source and exit are to one side of the length of the basement. Most of the dust is on the other side. I'll need to arrange a couple of strong fans (which I have) to push air through the dead spots for my dust soup. Again, even if it isn't perfect, it's a big first step.

This is part two of "clean the basement". Part one was a 3,200 sq ft dehumidifier to fix a black-mold problem that probably started with hurricane Ivan. Relative humidity dropped from 55 to 35 in two days. The living mold is gone but black mold is toxic and I'm sure there are corpses mixed with the mahogany dust. Not hazmat quantities anymore but I want it gone.

That last part will help me sell the procedure even though my wife's business building is 12' from the stairwell where the fan will point. I have some 'splainin' to do and need to keep my promises that clean-up includes everything in the path. Northern tool also sells the accordian ducting for air movers. Clipping one of those to the exhaust would let me fertilize the lawn.

Money wise, the fan pictured is probably $350 delivered. A cheap leaf blower maybe $60. Trim wood is either already in the pile or cheap and I have the paint too. I need new cans for the respirator and I'm sure I'll think of something else to buy at the BORG when I'm there.

If the administrators think any of this -- particularly valuable incoming lung information -- should go into a sticky I'm all for it. We still have a lot to learn about occupational and recreational safety. sh

Canarm 20.jpg

[Randall J Cox]

If you haven't already, punch up the ClearVue Cyclone web site and do some reading. It has some really in-depth stuff on woodworking and dust and dust collection. It's very detailed with "expert" input from folks that "look" like they know what they are doing and work in this area. Randy